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Thread: Deer A God Like Species??

  1. #1

    Deer A God Like Species??

    To quote Bambislayer from another post I thought I'd start this one..... I've got the bunker ready ....!

    ""I have just been up in Glenfeshie today and was heartened and amazed to see the regeneration in the Glen due to the lower deer levels [I also saw deer]. I love deer and stalking but maybe some us should look outside the stalking/deer is a god box and look at the whole picture[environmental] and I'm afraid munties et al have no place in it.

    Reducing deer levels using lights or out of season is not disrespectful , idolising them to a god like status and paying no head to the rest of their environment is."

    Not sure who has been idolising deer to god like status but I'd like to offer another perspective.
    I dont know Bambislayer although his addy is in the village next too mine. I think in the past he has been part of contract killing squads for deer control. Perhaps he leans more to one side than another, and I know also from reading his posts on here he a very knowledgeable lad with regards to Deer.
    My beef to this quote is and always will be this.

    When an estate/landowner decides it would like to have some sort of regen policy started it should not then be a given that the deer be treated as vermin as they currently are. Like it or not they were here when the country was covered in trees as many would have us believe it once was. They are part of our heritage. They do have a part to play in our countryside and tourism. And amazingly some people actually like the way our countryside looks as it is now. This also goes for some estates that have wiped out their deer populations in order for Grouse to re populate. So this is not an anti tree hugger post.
    I think the numbers some people say that deer should be reduced to per acre are far too low for a start. Also prior to having to wipe out virtually an entire deer population in an area then fencing should be prioritised first and foremost.
    I am not saying certain areas were not carrying too many deer, some were. Culls were needed and on the whole have been done. But the slaughter that has happened and continues to on some estates is nothing short of barbaric, Glenfeshie being one. Saying this does not in my mind mean I am idolising deer to a god like status. Its merely stating a fact that some people have a different view to wholesale slaughter for the sake of tree's or anything else.

    Now before anyone gets on their high horse, I am not deriding Bambislayer for his views, he has a right to believe them, all I am saying is that if you perhaps dont agree with them then trying to ridicule folk for having a different view isnt right. I dont agree with his view and he probably wont agree with mine, but i wont make fun of his view.(As for the munties keep them out)

    I'll start ducking now!

  2. #2
    I`m afraid when i die the wife will sell my gear for the price i told her

  3. #3
    I have nothing against regen. However the tree is king and must be protected. Little consideration was given when vast tracts of deer migration routes were fenced of an we had to dig trenches to bury the deer trapped as they moved down the side of Ben Cruachan. All that was required was a track a hundred yards wide to let the deer through Glen Noe. FC have been at war with deer since it was founded. An area on Glen Etive frquently had the deer fence laid over and Deer in the Dahl Forestry. The ranger turned up mob handed and shot them. We repaired the fence. Strangely it stopped suddenly when I caught and reported a ranger poachingon the estate. The laird said "He won't be back." Fencing used correctly could have saved many deer. SNH and FC are still showing contempt for deer and calling them vermin. The reasoning seems to be find the excuse to wipe them out. Cull plans should incluse numbers and quality to be left.

  4. #4
    I'm just going out to burn some heather, but will respond later Salmo

  5. #5
    My main gripe is the term "vermin", when shooting deer, I d treat them like,foxes or rabbits ie I try and kill them cleanly and efficiently. The god like status I was referring to was that deer must only be shot in season [man made] and in daylight but fox and co can be shot all year round whenever we want and with whatever we want to use.

    I'm not advocating all out war on deer but what would the SGA etc say about close seasons or "vermin", maybe we should be paying more respect to them.


    heather is nice and dry but nae wind

  6. #6
    Seasons to me are very important and i believe all wild life should be free from total persecution (excluding vermin). Were we are most lads will not even shoot foxes unless asked to do so by a landowner who are loosing lambs. To me a male and female season is really important for many reasons and the welfare of the animals we stalk rely on us. (man made ) to make the right decision. I am not saying the current seasons are the right ones but that is not my call.

  7. #7
    Why is it when Glen Feshie and other schemes are reffered to the word "slaughter" is used?

    The deer shot in these culls were treated and killed in a manner identical to any other culled deer, infact possibly better than most "new/unexperienced Client " shot beasts as they were killed by extremely experienced stalkers. There were as many Estate stalkers as contractors at Glen Feshie yet the contractors get the flack. In DCS/SNH literature the picture used where stalkers are emerging from a chopper are actually Balmoral keepers [the late Ben Fernie] yet contractors will be blamed.

    I's not about the trees it's about the natural environment and the trees just happen to be the most visable component.

    Rather than me trying to explain my thoughts I'll paste a quote from Aldo Leopold whos ideas are the bedrock to many hunting management programmes. After reading his work my attitude towards deer management certainly changed and deer management in my eyes is not just about deer .

    "We reached the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying in her eyes. I realized then, and have known ever since, that there was something new to me in those eyes - something known only to her and to the mountain. I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters' paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view.

    Since then I have lived to see state after state extirpate its wolves. I have watched the face of many a newly wolfless mountain, and seen the south-facing slopes wrinkle with a maze of new deer trails. I have seen every edible bush and seedling browsed, first to anaemic desuetude, and then to death. I have seen every edible tree defoliated to the height of a saddlehorn. Such a mountain looks as if someone had given God a new pruning shears, and forbidden Him all other exercise. In the end the starved bones of the hoped-for deer herd, dead of its own too-much, bleach with the bones of the dead sage, or molder under the high-lined junipers.

    I now suspect that just as a deer herd lives in mortal fear of its wolves, so does a mountain live in mortal fear of its deer. And perhaps with better cause, for while a buck pulled down by wolves can be replaced in two or three years, a range pulled down by too many deer may fail of replacement in as many decades. So also with cows. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf's job of trimming the herd to fit the range. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washing the future into the sea.

    We all strive for safety, prosperity, comfort, long life, and dullness. The deer strives with his supple legs, the cowman with trap and poison, the statesman with pen, the most of us with machines, votes, and dollars, but it all comes to the same thing: peace in our time. A measure of success in this is all well enough, and perhaps is a requisite to objective thinking, but too much safety seems to yield only danger in the long run. Perhaps this is behind Thoreau's dictum: In wildness is the salvation of the world. Perhaps this is the hidden meaning in the howl of the wolf, long known among mountains, but seldom perceived among men.

    I'm no saying we should return wolves as we have enough trouble trying to take care of grey squirrels!!!!!!

  8. #8
    If anyone is interested

    The Aldo Leopold Foundation

    Aldo Leopold - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I dont normally go with wiki but this is quite a good one

    [face book ruins degrees - Wikipedia saves them]

  9. #9
    Most times Bambi the pound is king and when you try and do two years worth of deer management in a couple of weeks then somthings got to give. Safe shots rushed shots meat hygene compromised dependants left with no chance of recover because of the type of shooting. Like has been said before by many contractors the quick fix dose not normally work.

    There were plenty to blame for the mistakes made and quick cash in my opinion has no place in the managment of deer. (BONUS HAS CAUSED HAVOCK IN EVERY WALK OF LIFE )

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by 6pointer View Post
    Most times Bambi the pound is king and when you try and do two years worth of deer management in a couple of weeks then somthings got to give. Safe shots rushed shots meat hygene compromised dependants left with no chance of recover because of the type of shooting. Like has been said before by many contractors the quick fix dose not normally work.

    There were plenty to blame for the mistakes made and quick cash in my opinion has no place in the managment of deer. (BONUS HAS CAUSED HAVOCK IN EVERY WALK OF LIFE )
    If that is the case then don't hire them, the above picture looks like an old style fc larder therefore I would say an old one, but I wont defend the undefendable.
    Just because you are shooting more than the average stalker does not mean standards should drop, that is why you are getting paid[in fact you should be better].
    How many keepers shove game in a game bag or hamper or even carcasses that have been in dogs mouths????
    I'm not going to have a p****** contest with anyone but I can tell you in the past I would larder a beast in half the time most others would but still produce a good product for the game dealer, this is not because of any inherant skill but time, and more so practise will allow you these skills [ie 20 deer at 3am n the morning and you've been up since 6am], also if you are paying for your own time and ammo [especially at the current prices] you will not take unnesesary shots or take ill aimed ones. personally I don't do this anymore, basically because I want to spend time with my family and flying a desk is an easier way to make a pound but I wouldn't put anyone else of it or do I regret it. Remember most of my career has been spent as a traditional stalker, pony and all.

    Whether a deer waits 2 or 5 years to be shot is purely academic also meat production is a by product of deer culling, as long as the death is quick and clean , the meat quality is secondary as long as poor quality stuff doesn't go into the food chain.

    Large scale culling has always taken place [victorian deer drives??] but has only become common knowledge in the last 10years or so, standards have become 100x better than what was practised before I assure you.

    The pound rules, grant aid has time restraints and therefore operations have to be done in a certain time frame , that is the way of the world, therefore we have to work within it. Surely it is better to do it as cleanly and effectively as possible, if that includes a chopper then fine, wonder how our victorian fore fathers would view a moderator, scope or argo????
    Look at the uproar caused when the forum masses herd of JMT leaving carcasses in Gen Nevis!!!!
    Did I not hear folk shout about choppers???????

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