Firearms Cert question,Can I go out shooting without my certificate ????

jonevo

Well-Known Member
I have sent my F/A Cert back for a variation to be placed on it,
My Question is :
1.Although I dont have it in my hand can I still go out shooting without it??
2.what happens if I am asked for it ,if I do go out shooting ???

thanks

Jonevo
 
I only take a photocopy with me when shooting anyway, although not been stopped by the police, I would think that they would be happy with a photocopy, and not take posession of my rifles/shotgun at the time. They might ask me to produce the original within a set time though, which would not bother me.

TJ
 
The simple answer is Yes you can still go shooting as you do not need to carry your Fac with you at all when out shooting. If you are stoped by the Police they can ask for your details over the radio.
 
I asked the same question year's ago?
And was informed we have Radio's to contact our head office and it will be on our record's :coat:

I remember when i use to carry it around because the Police where i shot went around on bicycles :rofl:

No Radio's in those day's and very little crime :rolleyes:

The only thing you will not get any ammo without it, so make sure you have stocked up.

ATB
Wullie.
 
The photo copying of any government documents are illegal.

I think you'll find that this is not strictly true.

For example, your passport:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/reproduction-british-passport.pdf

So you can take a black and white photocopy of the information page for your own records and use. You will see that anyone else who wishes to photocopy the information page is advised that they should get the passport holder's permission.

Regarding the FAC, my local police force (Thames Valley) sent me written instructions advising me to send them photocopies of my old FAC/SGC, rather than the originals, when they were due for renewal.

This also from BASC's website:

If your Firearms Licensing Department ask for your certificate, photocopy the whole certificate and enclose the copy with your application. We advise that you always keep copies for your own records in case any administrative queries arise in the future.

http://www.basc.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/61EEDFF2-7222-4615-BB4B187BAD081659

So unless we are saying that both my local police force and BASC are inciting me to commit an illegal act I think you'll find it's fine to take a photocopy of your FAC for your own personal records. It would, of course, be illegal to attempt to pass a copy off as the original, or to allow someone else to do so.

willie_gunn
 
If you copy it there is a copyright issue.


[SIZE=2 said:
The photo copying of any government documents are illegal.[/SIZE]

Neither of these statements are true.

The BASC advice to send in a photocopy to Firearms Licensing during Renewal or Variation is unhelpful and misleading.

You have to return the original as only one document can be in circulation at a time. A facsimile will not do as the genuine FAC is the only legal document. This is retained by Firearms Licensing, and a replacement issued which isn't strictly valid until you receive it and sign it. The FAC is printed on registered computer generated continuous stationery sourced from the Home Office.

A photocopy is useful but proves absolutely nothing. I never carry my FAC or a photocopy of it as any police patrol car has access to the the PNCR record we all now have. Their job is to check that I am a valid FAC Holder which they'll do whether you have documents or not. Few of them know whether your documents are valid or not as they've probably never seen an original. It's more risky to carry it around than not I feel.
 
Echo what others have said its ok as they will radio in and check,that's what my FLO told me anyway.
 
You have to return the original as only one document can be in circulation at a time.

I think not - only one document will be valid at any one time, which is achieved through the Expiry Date on the old FAC and the signature on the new FAC. I still have my old FAC (in fact I think I have my last two or three). I also have my old passports, my old driving licence, etc.;)

willie_gunn
 
yes you can as i am at this moment in time MINE SEEMS TO BE TAKING ITS TIME THEY DONT WANT TO GIVE ME A 338 LAP ON MY 15 ACRES EVEN THOUGH I TOLD THEM I CANT HAVE ANY RUNNERS IN THAT AREA :lol:
 
I almost found out for real last night.... We were parked in the entrance of the farm getting (excuse the pun) our kit out, when a police van pulled up behind. One got out while I assume the other PNC checked the plate.
He said "alright lads, what you up to?"
"Lamping" I replied.
"after rabbits?" he asked...
"And foxes, yeh"

Then he said "I'll just get a torch" walked back to his van, fumbled around then came back and said "battery's flat, have a good night"
and off they went.
 
Your other issue is that when you send in for a variation you lose your ammo purchase history - so a simple copy lets you show usage.
 
I carry a photocopy. But Gloucestershire FACs, when photocopied, will show up a big sign saying "FRAUD" all the way across the certificate.

I once sold a shotgun to someone who gave me a copy of his SGC just for convenience when sending the paperwork. I got home and realised it said FRAUD across it and thought to myself "****, I've just given a shotgun to someone without an SGC". Took a couple of minutes for me to realise.
 
I think not - only one document will be valid at any one time, which is achieved through the Expiry Date on the old FAC and the signature on the new FAC. I still have my old FAC (in fact I think I have my last two or three). I also have my old passports, my old driving licence, etc.;)

willie_gunn

WG
Just to add a little here,
You can hav in your possesion as many valid FAC's as your FLD care to send out to you
I had over 4 valid FAC's which all had the same valid from -to dates and all had the same date of when signed by my FLM
I did try and send some of those back as I did not need that many but always got a new one on return post

It is not illegal not to send them back but may cause a few probs if you were to purchase multiples of the same calibres that you still had authorisation to from all those tickets,

But you can still use any of those valid tickets to purchase ammo and any of the remaining calibres you still hav authorisation for , just keep with-in the conditions placed on you as if it was just one FAC you had in your possession and you will be fine
 
My mate got stopped the other day, he had a photocopy and cops were great.....suppose it depends on you and me as shooters, if we get stopped either withou or with a photocopy, if we bleat, winge or gift the cops a hard time for stopping us.....then we will get a hard time in return. At the end of the day under the uniform there is a guy just doing his job. I would say in 99 percent of cases if your polite you will be ok.
 
I been stopped a few times, just depends on the cop you get on the night,

some accept :D the photocopy and some don't. :(

In the case of the latter, it usually means a trip to the local cop shop with the genuine cert.

Rgds, Buck.
 
Sorry guys, but there are too many fire side lawyers on this thread.
I respectfully suggest that some/all of you acquaint yourselves with the terms of the Firearms Act (1968).

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27

The relevant sections of which are 47 (Powers of Constable to Stop and Search) an 48 (Production of Certificates)

Sorry to diappoint some of our more vociferous contributors but, A PHOTOCOPY IS NOT A VALID FAC, not in the eyes of the law and not in the eyes of a grumpy Police Constable with the law on his side, not yours.
If you are in possession of a firearm or firearms, and a Police Constable (or rank senior to Constable) asks to inspect your FAC which authorises your possession of said firearm/firearms, you MUST IMMEDIATELY produce the FAC. Failure to do so is a specific offence under the terms of the Firearms Act, wanting to keep your FAC pristine or fear of losing it in the field IS NOT an acceptable excuse, in fact there is no excuse at all for failure to produce your FAC (the original) ON DEMAND.
I emphasise, the law gives no specific authorisation for use of photocopy!
Of course, individual Police discretion is allowed, as in all cases of Police dealing with the public, so a Police Constable (or other rank) may, subject to their own discretion/pre-disposition/judgement, accept a photocopy or notarised copy, AND although the law doesn't give a specific right to produce a photocopy, it also does not specifically ban it, but do you want to throw yourself upon the mercy of a cop whom you might not know?

The said Police Constable can, and is fully entitled to under the provisions of the Firearms Act;
1) sieze the firearm(s)
2) detain the holder of such firearm(s) until satisfied that the terms of the Firearms Act have been satisfied.

Now, as an ex-cop I have to tell you, indeed warn you, that the very worst thing that you can ever do when dealing with the law is to take the high horse when you don't have a saddle.
If you can't prove that you have authority to carry a firearm, and sorry guys but an actual, original, signed legible FAC is the ONLY valid proof you will ever have in your possession, then you are liable to questions, possible arrest and maybe even siezure/forfeiture of your firearms.

In short, carry your FAC, it's easy and I do it all the time with no trouble to me at all. The FAC fits nicely into a waterproof wallet, such as you can buy for protecting documents, mobiles or cash whilst kayaking and such.
It avoids any unnecessary hassle with the law and the possibility, however remote, of arrest and confiscation of my prized firearms. If you wanna risk carrying your firearms without also being in possession of your original FAC, you best hope that the cop you meet knows you OR bite your tongue and hope you get the chance to explain AND the cop believes you.
Sure, get all mouthy and tell the cop that you know your rights and that you "know his job better than he does", but I would suggest that you better learn how to like the back of a Police-car and how to manage without your firearms pretty darn sharpish.

Believe me, if your firearms are ever siezed, for whatever reason, it's gonna count against you in future dealings with your Firearms Enquiry team (FET) or FEO.

But hey, this is just my advice, with some knowledge of the law and experience of how to enforce it, you do as you feel happy with but don't be surprised if you come a cropper when/if you don't follow the letter of the law.
 
Sorry guys, but there are too many fire side lawyers on this thread.
I respectfully suggest that some/all of you acquaint yourselves with the terms of the Firearms Act (1968).

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27

The relevant sections of which are 47 (Powers of Constable to Stop and Search) an 48 (Production of Certificates)

Sorry to diappoint some of our more vociferous contributors but, A PHOTOCOPY IS NOT A VALID FAC, not in the eyes of the law and not in the eyes of a grumpy Police Constable with the law on his side, not yours.
If you are in possession of a firearm or firearms, and a Police Constable (or rank senior to Constable) asks to inspect your FAC which authorises your possession of said firearm/firearms, you MUST IMMEDIATELY produce the FAC. Failure to do so is a specific offence under the terms of the Firearms Act, wanting to keep your FAC pristine or fear of losing it in the field IS NOT an acceptable excuse, in fact there is no excuse at all for failure to produce your FAC (the original) ON DEMAND.

Now where does it say that? Under section 48 [that you refer] the police may demand to see the holders FAC/SGC. If that is not produced then they can seize the firearms until you can prove lawful authority to posses.

a person upon whom a demand is made under this section fails to produce the certificate or to permit the constable to read it, or to show that he is entitled by virtue of this Act to have the firearm, ammunition or shot gun in his possession without holding a certificate, the constable may seize and detain the firearm, ammunition or shot gun

I can see no part in the document where is is an offence not to carry your FAC!
 
Hey Apache
Actually you're part correct, if upon failing to produce your FAC you then fail to fully identify yourself, you commit the offence.
However, without your FAC you are still liable to forfeiture of your firearms.
I will leave to you as to whether you really want to argue the finer points of the law with a cold, fed up constable who would love to head back to the station with a "firearms detection" on his monthly record.
And, ok you read the section, so where does it say a photocopy is valid or acceptable?
Don't carry your original FAC and you get the wrong PC, the least that might happen is that you temporarily lose your frearms.
Is it worth that to prove a point?

Like I said, the law doesn't SPECIFICALLY preclude a photocopy as valid, but it sure as hell doesn't specifically allow it either.

Carry your FAC = no probs
Don't carry it, or carry a photocopy = potential probs

If you don't carry any other valid form of ID and/or "fail the attitude test" then you face seizure of firearms (at least), maybe arrest, potentially some awkward questions as to your fitness to hold an FAC in future - remember intemperate behaviour can count against you.

I prefer the easy way - maybe I'm a coward or perhaps I just respect the law - I carry my original, it hasn't spontaneously combusted, fallen to pieces (despite being printed on cheap crappy paper - but that's maybe for another thread), become illegible or otherwise unuseable and possession of it has smoothed things over for me on occasion.
 
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