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Thread: has money ruinned or made stalking?

  1. #1

    has money ruinned or made stalking?

    ever since man was able to either throw a rock or spear or even shoot a bow he has hunted deer originally just to survive but now the act of stalking deer generates money and a lot of it for those whom have inheritated or bought the rights stalk them. But has the money that now surounds deer distroyed the access to them which we once all were entitled to, or has the limitations of money protected deer within the u.k. meaning that not any tom, dick or harry can just go out blasting away at deer but now only a select few whom are skilled enough to manage deer to such a point that they can not only protect there future but also produce a return from them. your thoughts i look forward to reading

  2. #2
    That's a bit deep.

    Has the fact that access to stalking has become more limited and jelously guarded over the years improved the management and welfare of the deer? Yes it probably has.

    Has the introduction of regulation to the sport improved standards and therefore the management and welfare of the deer? Probably yes.

    Does the fact that people are willing to pay for the privilage help the income of farmers and provide a reasonable standard of living for a fair number of people? Yes, it probably does.

    Do those professionals who earn a living from the sport contribute to the habitat and our enjoyment of the sport? I think so.

    So the deer are probably better off, many people and communities benefit from the sport and the flora and fauna are better off as a result.

    Sounds reasonable to me.

    Go to France where their regulation is not as tight and people are far more free to hunt where they want to with private hunts being the exception rather than the rule. The first thing you notice is that we have a great deal more wildlife than they do. That's the alternative.

  3. #3
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    Frankly, has it ever been thus?? Ever since the early Middle Ages, the right to Hunt Deer or the other 'beasts of the chase' (as distinct from Vermin) has been controlled by those who had the wherewithal to do so; be it Medieval Forests, or more recent Deer parks and Estates. The recent past, in which there has been a large Deer population, on land to which it was relatively easy/cheap to gain access, and legal to hunt, is the exception rather than the rule.

    Not to say that it's right, but it's the way it is.

  4. #4
    I think that its done a bit of both. For example, a farm near me has the stalking leased to 3 welsh guys who only come about 4 or 5 times a year and as a result the place is crawling with deer. This is a massive shame in my eyes because I for one would love to get my hands on the lease!
    But on the other hand, many people who do have permissions and leases look after them immpecabley and keep the deer numbers and gene pool in check.

    Basically it just depends on if your the one with the money and what you want to do with it!

  5. #5
    Supply and demand. It'a not really all about money but it is about desire, harvesting and opportunity. Those in charge of ground can often have something that others will pay to experience. Offering out the culling of deer can have financial benefits but it's complicated and some grounds let out simply don't get managed. Some times a well managed estate can generate long term income for generations. But at a farm level an over enthusiastic novice could wipe out a local population of roe after getting on a new permission and that's it for while. There's lots of really choice ground out there and sometimes you get it for free but often it's dosh that works.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by NigelM View Post
    That's a bit deep.

    Has the fact that access to stalking has become more limited and jelously guarded over the years improved the management and welfare of the deer? Yes it probably has.

    Has the introduction of regulation to the sport improved standards and therefore the management and welfare of the deer? Probably yes.

    Does the fact that people are willing to pay for the privilage help the income of farmers and provide a reasonable standard of living for a fair number of people? Yes, it probably does.

    Do those professionals who earn a living from the sport contribute to the habitat and our enjoyment of the sport? I think so.

    So the deer are probably better off, many people and communities benefit from the sport and the flora and fauna are better off as a result.

    Sounds reasonable to me.

    Go to France where their regulation is not as tight and people are far more free to hunt where they want to with private hunts being the exception rather than the rule. The first thing you notice is that we have a great deal more wildlife than they do. That's the alternative.
    +1 ..Wise words from NigelM...nothing more to add, other than to say that without an organised hunting industry in places like Africa, there would be precious little wildlife left, so the same applies worldwide, if you are serious about conservation.

  7. #7
    An interesting question that has long awaited sensible debate.

    Whereas I would agree that money has certainly brought (or should that be bought) advantages for deer, wildlife, the environment & for farmers who would welcome additional income I feel that we should also look at alternatives to the current (quasi-feudal?) system of paying for exclusive access.

    Would a club based system provide the same advantages to deer, wildlife, the environment & farmers whilst providing reasonably priced access to stalking?
    It works for wildfowling where clubs manage a wild migratory quarry & the fragile environment which it requires & it seems to work for deer in the areas managed by the St.Hubert's Club.

    I suspect the crux of the original question though should be, has profit ruined stalking for the "ordinary bloke"?
    Just my two penn'orth!

  8. #8
    i disagree i think money has done nothing for deer / deer stalking id say it has a detramental effect on deer managment as stalking and rifles are in vogue now and every tom dick and harry now has one or should i say everyone who has a shot gun has one ,where as 30 years ago maybe one in twenty had a rifle the ones who took a interest in deer and had a certain respect for deer and wanted to learn as much as they could about them and manage then to there best ability . i would also say that deer were better managed as they were not shot on sight just incase they didnt hang around or went over the boundry to be shot by some one else which seems to happen alot now or so previous threads on here would suggest . maybe the dsc courses help a new comer to undertand a basic knowledge of deer but there is no better knowledge than expirence and knowning your ground and your deer i personally find it harder to accertain deer numbers on my ground now than i did ten years ago or my farther did 30 years ago due to the massive increase in rifles around and deer being shot . i dont think clubs would help as with wildfowling clubs everyone is out for what they can get which means numbers so again a detramental affect on deer . i rekon that thers too many deer being shot by too many people and in a few years it will be where are alll the deer ,and for those who have deer they will be paying more and more and stalking will become even more elitest

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by pwolstenholme View Post
    I think that its done a bit of both. For example, a farm near me has the stalking leased to 3 welsh guys who only come about 4 or 5 times a year and as a result the place is crawling with deer. This is a massive shame in my eyes because I for one would love to get my hands on the lease!
    But on the other hand, many people who do have permissions and leases look after them immpecabley and keep the deer numbers and gene pool in check.

    Basically it just depends on if your the one with the money and what you want to do with it!
    Maybe they choose to see it so. I know exactly where your at, but just think of the cull later . Maybe they have another lease & are keeping stocks up to swap about. I know some Scotish herds are kept upto with Farmed deer from Yorkshire, & the best heads get bought for transporting to good sites, for stalks. I love the challenge of the stalk, I also love to se them wandering about, gracing the countryside. There are far too many shot at random & not managed , in some areas,deer are persicuted.
    Last edited by MrYou; 16-03-2011 at 21:39. Reason: spell check

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by swatty View Post
    i disagree i think money has done nothing for deer / deer stalking id say it has a detramental effect on deer managment as stalking and rifles are in vogue now and every tom dick and harry now has one or should i say everyone who has a shot gun has one ,where as 30 years ago maybe one in twenty had a rifle the ones who took a interest in deer and had a certain respect for deer and wanted to learn as much as they could about them and manage then to there best ability . i would also say that deer were better managed as they were not shot on sight just incase they didnt hang around or went over the boundry to be shot by some one else which seems to happen alot now or so previous threads on here would suggest . maybe the dsc courses help a new comer to undertand a basic knowledge of deer but there is no better knowledge than expirence and knowning your ground and your deer i personally find it harder to accertain deer numbers on my ground now than i did ten years ago or my farther did 30 years ago due to the massive increase in rifles around and deer being shot . i dont think clubs would help as with wildfowling clubs everyone is out for what they can get which means numbers so again a detramental affect on deer . i rekon that thers too many deer being shot by too many people and in a few years it will be where are alll the deer ,and for those who have deer they will be paying more and more and stalking will become even more elitest
    Swatty,

    I have allot of symathy with your arguement. You sound like you have a rich family history in the sport and were bought up with deer, something us newcomers don't have the benifit of. You have probably forgotten more than we will ever learn.

    However, it doesn't mean that others shouldn't come into the sport. Without fresh blood the sport would eventually die off, but the newcomers must learn best practice and respect the quarry in the same way as I'm sure you have always done. I went through DMQ and the emphasis was entirely on good management of deer. Love it or hate it, it gets the message across very clearly. Forums like this encourage newcomers to respect those same values and peer pressure is even stronger than the "official certification".

    In my part of the world, judging by the increase in RTA's, sightings and crop damage, the deer numbers are increasing, not decreasing. There is pressure to shoot more. There are still too many lumps of ground where land owners, including "conservation" organisations, don't allow deer management to take place. I was involved last year with a team who were tasked with reducing a population of 450 Fallow resident in just 180 acres of woodland which the land owner didn't want shot. After a count he was persuaded of the error of his ways. There are plenty more of those about.

    As for money ruining the sport, I have 4000 acres in Suffolk I stalk. Mostly arable - so it's not that impressive, but some nice little bits of woodland and new plantations to have a wander through. I persuaded the game keeper to let me keep the deer under control. He had spent the past 30 years lamping them and didn't particularly like it, but it was quick and effective and time is something a hard working gamekeeper is always short of. I pay nothing, have great sport, he's happy so long as he doesn't bump into too many and the deer are much better managed.

    I also make the annual pilgramage north of the border to gods country with a group of mates and take a week on the Red and Sika stags. In doing so I'm helping in my little way to keep the rich herritage of stalking going, and at the same time learning more about how to manage my own bit of ground.

    So let's not knock the new boys too hard, some of us try hard to catch up with those of you who have had the privilage to be bought up with it.

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