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Thread: What Does "In Possession" Mean?

  1. #1

    What Does "In Possession" Mean?

    Here's another question for the legal eagles amongst you.

    The law requires a deerstalker to be in possession of a current FAC covering the rifles used and ground to be stalked. Is it necessary to carry the FAC on one's person to be "in possession" or can it be in the drugs sense that to have one but not necessarily on one's person is sufficient to comply with the law?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul k View Post
    Here's another question for the legal eagles amongst you.

    The law requires a deerstalker to be in possession of a current FAC covering the rifles used and ground to be stalked. Is it necessary to carry the FAC on one's person to be "in possession" or can it be in the drugs sense that to have one but not necessarily on one's person is sufficient to comply with the law?
    A person has possession of something if the person knows of its presence and has physical control of it, or has the power and intention to control it. [More than one person can be in possession of something if each knows of its presence and has the power and intention to control it.]
    The law recognizes several kinds of possession. A person may have actual possession or constructive possession. A person may also have sole possession or joint possession.
    A person who has direct physical control of something on or around his person is then in actual possession of it.
    A person who is not in actual possession, but who has both the power and the intention to later take control over something either alone or together with someone else, is in constructive possession of it.
    If one person alone has possession of something, possession is sole.
    If two or more persons share possession, possession is joint.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamus View Post
    A person has possession of something if the person knows of its presence and has physical control of it, or has the power and intention to control it. [More than one person can be in possession of something if each knows of its presence and has the power and intention to control it.]
    The law recognizes several kinds of possession. A person may have actual possession or constructive possession. A person may also have sole possession or joint possession.
    A person who has direct physical control of something on or around his person is then in actual possession of it.
    A person who is not in actual possession, but who has both the power and the intention to later take control over something either alone or together with someone else, is in constructive possession of it.
    If one person alone has possession of something, possession is sole.
    If two or more persons share possession, possession is joint.
    Excellent response and very comprehensive, but in your view does a stalker actually have to have his FAC with him in order to satisfy the law. At the moment I take mine with me but leave it in the car whilst actually stalking however I carry a credit card sized document in my wallet that has the essential details of both my FAC and SGC on it.

  4. #4
    Its a bit like being in possession of/or holding a current driving licence to drive a car. How many of us actually carry it when driving? I know I don't. I have never carried my firearm or shotgun certificates with me in case I get stopped when the guns are also present. I have them in the car when I need them to buy stuff.

    If you are stopped and asked for your driving licence, some checks will be done before you are issued with an HORT1 to produce your documents. PNC checks on the vehicle, insurance details which are now also held on the vehicle details section on PNC, even voters role checks to try and ensure you are who you say you are. Then you get the slip to produce your docs within 7 days. There is no reason why police officers should not carry out similar checks if you are stopped in possession of firearms as the law does not require you to carry certificates when you also carry a gun (yet). Some may say that common sense would suggest you should do however, to prevent any unnecessary inconvenience but it is not a lawful requirement.

    Some perhaps young in service police officers may be unaware of where the details are kept in relation to your firearms/shotgun authorisation. They are contained on SCRO (in Scotland), Scottish Criminal Records Office files and in England CRO. It comes up next to your name as an 'explosives' marker. This is the same system that records any history of criminal and certain road traffic convictions as well. It is instantly accessible by any police officer should you be stopped and 'checked out'.

    A friend of mine was once stopped and when the guns were seen the young cops got into a bit of a panic and started talking about seizing them. My mate basically told them where to go and explained where they should check to see if all was in order. They did and the situation was resolved.

    Maybe I will start to carry them in the car all the time in future....

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul k View Post
    Excellent response and very comprehensive, but in your view does a stalker actually have to have his FAC with him in order to satisfy the law. At the moment I take mine with me but leave it in the car whilst actually stalking however I carry a credit card sized document in my wallet that has the essential details of both my FAC and SGC on it.
    In my view.... No. However, in any given set of circumstances that you might experience "my view" is probably immaterial and the choice is yours.

    The immediate answer more likely rests in the realm of reasonableness. i.e. In both your ability to reason and put forward your case and your examiner's openess to such reason.

    The ultimate answer, both here and to your examiner, is that you do actually possess and can demonstrate such. The amount of hassle you might have to endure in arriving at proving that ultimate answer is what might determine your choice of whether to "carry" on your person or not. Of course, this has to be balanced against considerations of risk and inconvenience.

    Personally, for convenience, I tend to carry a monochrome photo-copy but only when away from home.

  6. #6
    I know my cert numbers, but having the originals is much better for plod if they ask to see it. My experience is that near home they are fine but out of your area they like to see the certs.

  7. #7
    "In possession" is not the same as "on your possession"

    I carry mine in my rucksack but it's not a legal requirement.... just saves time if the police turn up, a quick check of certificate they're on their way and I can carry on with my shooting with minimal interuption.
    "It's halfway down the hill, directly below that tree next to a rock that looks like a bell-end"

    Good deals with ~ deako ~ sakowsm ~ dryan ~ 2734neil ~ mo ~ riggers ~ mmbeatle ~ seanct ~ an du ru fox

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Si View Post
    "In possession" is not the same as "on your possession"
    I carry mine in my rucksack but it's not a legal requirement.... just saves time if the police turn up, a quick check of certificate they're on their way and I can carry on with my shooting with minimal interuption.
    When I read something like this it makes me think some of you have policemen walking all over your stalking areas.
    I only ever see them on roads and my kit is always stashed away when travelling on public roads so they never get the chance to see what I have

  9. #9
    We do... self appointed police masquerading as dog walkers

    It's only happened twice in 20odd yrs thankfully, and only the local beat bobbies not ARV
    "It's halfway down the hill, directly below that tree next to a rock that looks like a bell-end"

    Good deals with ~ deako ~ sakowsm ~ dryan ~ 2734neil ~ mo ~ riggers ~ mmbeatle ~ seanct ~ an du ru fox

  10. #10
    Done to death on a previous thread I think.

    Basically you have to have a current FAC to hold, carry or use a firearm which is detailed on the FAC.
    You don't have to have your FAC in your immediate, or actual possession as Tamus puts it, but any police officer can seize any firearms in your possession and hold them until production of the FAC which proves your right to hold, carry, use.

    You don't have to carry your FAC, but without it if you are unfortunate enough to run into a stroppy cop you won't be carrying your firearms either.

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