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Thread: Conditions on your ticket.

  1. #1

    Conditions on your ticket.

    I have the usual deer fox and vermin but condition 9 is very interesting!

    9. The certificate holder may possess, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition, or the missiles of such ammunition, in the calibers authorised by this certificate and use only in connection with:

    (a) the lawful shooting of deer;
    (b) the shooting of vermin or, in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife.


    Now does this mean anything goes?

  2. #2
    NO!.......... you can't shoot fox, they are classed as a pest, not vermin and you haven't got them specifically named, you haven't got either wild goat or wild pig/boar, they also have to be named, getting to be a bit of a minefield aint it? Your FEO may well say it's OK but to the letter of the law, I think I'd phone up or e-mail for clarity.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by deer man View Post
    I have the usual deer fox and vermin but condition 9 is very interesting!

    9. The certificate holder may possess, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition, or the missiles of such ammunition, in the calibers authorised by this certificate and use only in connection with:

    (a) the lawful shooting of deer;
    (b) the shooting of vermin or, in connection with the management of any estate, other wildlife.


    Now does this mean anything goes?
    No, why would it?

    Your condition attached to the firearms themselves controls what you can actually shoot, so be guided by that. The expanding ammunition condition is a standard one that everyone gets in one form or another and is designed to cover all eventualities - depending on what people have their firearms conditioned for.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by callie View Post
    NO!.......... you can't shoot fox, they are classed as a pest, not vermin and you haven't got them specifically named, you haven't got either wild goat or wild pig/boar, they also have to be named, getting to be a bit of a minefield aint it? Your FEO may well say it's OK but to the letter of the law, I think I'd phone up or e-mail for clarity.

    I have got Fox in condition 8.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    No, why would it?

    Your condition attached to the firearms themselves controls what you can actually shoot, so be guided by that. The expanding ammunition condition is a standard one that everyone gets in one form or another and is designed to cover all eventualities - depending on what people have their firearms conditioned for.

    All eventualities would be what if it's not specifically named on the ticket?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by deer man View Post

    (b) the shooting of vermin or, in connection with the management of any estate, Other wildlife
    So what does this mean?

  6. #6
    deer man,

    The 'universal' expanding ammunition condition that you have partially quoted was drafted by the HO legal bods at relatively short notice, following the categorising of all expanding ammo/bullets as S.5 Prohibited items at the time of the post-Dunblane Firearms Act revisions in 1997.

    In the rush to effectively ban all things to do with pistols, the authorities made a serious cock-up by not realising until very late in the day that other shooters, including those taking deer and other wildlife, would also be using expanding ammo. They had to do something quickly to prevent those other users from being open to prosecution for possessing what until that time had been unrestricted items, so made a general exemption that would hopefully cover all eventualities for use that they could at the time foresee. Many of us had to have this new condition specially written onto our FACs to keep us on the right side of the law. As you can see it wasn't written well or clearly at all and now appears to be subject to amendment by some forces at renewal time.

    If on your FAC it is in the original form as per the Act the condition still only refers to the reason(s) - there are four listed - for possession of the ammunition, the use will be governed by any condition attached to a firearm. 'Other Wildlife' would cover possession of expanding ammo/bullets for anything not specifically also mentioned at subsection 1) deer; or subsection 2) vermin. Whether your issuing force will accept certain species - such as boar, goat, etc. - being classified as 'vermin' is another matter and comes down to the good ole postcode lottery that passes for administration of the Firearms Acts!

    The full details can be viewed in the HO Guidance in Chapter 3. 31-33 (Prohibited Weapons and Ammunition) and Chapter 4 (Expanding Ammunition).

    Exemptions
    4.4 Section 10 of the 1997 Act amended
    section 5A(4) of the 1968 Act to exempt
    from the general prohibition on expanding
    ammunition people who use it for specific
    purposes. The exemptions cover those people
    who use expanding ammunition for the:
    1. lawful shooting of deer;
    2. shooting of vermin or, in the course
    of estate management, other wildlife;
    3. humane killing of animals; and
    4. shooting animals for the protection
    of other animals or humans.
    Last edited by Orion; 22-05-2011 at 18:43.

  7. #7
    Playing devils advocate really? It's the other wildlife clause that has me interested as I wonder how it would be seen in a court of law?

  8. #8
    Everyone has the expanding ammunition exemption.... it doesn't mean you can shoot any other wildlife, it means you can use expanding ammunition on other wildlife provided you have authority to use your rifle on that particular species.
    And it also says in the course of estate management, so the clause only applies to estate managers.
    "It's halfway down the hill, directly below that tree next to a rock that looks like a bell-end"

    Good deals with ~ deako ~ sakowsm ~ dryan ~ 2734neil ~ mo ~ riggers ~ mmbeatle ~ seanct ~ an du ru fox

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by deer man View Post
    Playing devils advocate really? It's the other wildlife clause that has me interested as I wonder how it would be seen in a court of law?
    As Orion has said. This refers ONLY to the Ammo (expanding) and not to your rifles. You can only shoot what your rifle conditions state.

    The all encompassing expanding ammo conditions were drafted to cover any and all eventualities that the police may condition a rifle for such as a safari park or zoo employee needing to shoot an escapee or any other such obscure scenario that one can think of.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by deer man View Post
    Playing devils advocate really? It's the other wildlife clause that has me interested as I wonder how it would be seen in a court of law?
    No, you've got me there.

    I really don't understand what you're trying to get at. See what the others above have added.

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