.........And Further beyond the Urban Twit

donsider

Well-Known Member
Members will recall a post of mine, the Urban Twit, regarding a meeting I had with someone when setting out stalking on one of my stalking grounds here in Aberdeenshire last week. I reported on this persons attitude to my request as to where he intended walking so that I would know his whereabouts, for safety reasons et al.

Well last night I had a call from Grampian Police........

"Nothing to worry about Mr. Donsider but do you recall your activities last Tuesday evening near Alford......?"

The penny dropped.. "Yes I do" I replied, and then the constable asked for my recollection of the evening and my meeting with a man and woman. I gave him my full account of the meeting and my follow up meeting with the Farm Manager and that I even recalled the events of the evening in my Game Book/Journal. I even told the constable that I gave a post of the account on this forum.

"Thankyou very much Mr. Donsider". said the contable. This is not quite how the other side reported the situation". However, I did advise the constable that I had a right of access and was undertaking a rural activity and that he was interfering with my executing that activity both safely and effectively. Remember I had no witnesses.

The constacle told me that the person in question was going on to him about his so called "Right to Rome" and that there shouldn't be people going about with high powered guns and that I was aggressive and that he did not see why he had to answer my questions. The constable told me, after further discussion, that there was no cause for concern on my part and that he would get back to the person (Mr. Twitt )and advise him accordingly.

What is interesting here is that this person reported our meeting to the Police and his rather creative interpretation of events. And that the Police, all be it taking a few days, checked me out as to where I lived, what conditions were on my certificate, my occupation and as to the land being suitable for stalking before contacting me and finally, that there is now a recording of the event on file.

Thank goodness I kept my cool and in no way either provoked or exacerbated the situation. Who know what could have happened then? A friend tells me that my firearms could have been removed pending a full Police enquirey. .......And all on the word of a "know all"

Not wanting to lift the lid ff a hornets nest but I feel that perhaps the Shooting organisations such as BASC etc. should have a higher profile in incidents like this and that they should follow up these incidents and advise these members of the public accordingly. Here in Scotland there is no such thing as a "Right to Rome" but responsible access and that this access should not interfere with legitimate rural activities and pursuits. There is a television advertising campaign here on Scottish Television regarding this. I am sure there are many other stalkers who have had expensive stalking ruined because of hill walkers.

After talking with the constable, who I should say was very understanding, helpfull and supportive, did agree that these sorts of incidents do arrise and, sadly, by the same mindframe but they have a duty to follow them up.

I think we should always watch our Ps and Qs when coming accross these people whilst out stalking, that is, if you don't want a call from the Police.....


Donsider
 
What is it with these narrow minded, spiteful troublemakers. It's a shame the police don't throw the book at them for wasting their time. :mad:
 
Well done Donsider, I'm not sure I could have handled the situation as well as you. You actions and diligence making notes etc have reflected well on the stalking and shooting community. All credit to you.
 
Here in Scotland there is no such thing as a "Right to Rome" but responsible access and that this access should not interfere with legitimate rural activities and pursuits.

That's true, we never lay claim to those ancient lands, but anyway nor is there a "Right to Roam" :smug::p:lol:

ha ha ha..couldn't help it mate. Anyhow, I'm a stalker and a hill walker, and I have to agree with both parties on the subject. The stalker obviously finds it a pain in the backside that people walk over his grounds, disturb his wildlife, and could potentially appear in the line of sight at any time,,,as well as causing trouble with the local police at times too of course. On the other hand though, if the land really is free to hill walkers and we all have a legitimate right to use the hills as we see fit, well, then it's not much fun either having to be afraid of accidentally getting shot, or being confronted by an armed member of the shooting community argueing 'their' case.

We don't want to end up like some places in the world where land is so private that you can legally get shot by entering a step 'over the line',,nor do you want to be unable to enjoy your own land for because it's either not safe, or hill walkers are ruining it for you. I guess the best thing is to apply to the local council for 'private access' rights and then signpost in the relevant areas.
 
a good account and "warning" donsider

im just down the road from you a wee bit but come under a different police force jurisdiction.....

i have friends who stalk in your area and it always amazes me the differences when compared between forces and their attitudes!!!!!

i would say that Grampian must be one of the best towards shooters in attitude and time scale wise when having anything done with your cert.

back to the point in hand.....your force was dilligent got the facts and got BOTH sides of the story.
i wonder how many other forces would have had a knock on your door and your weapons removed before you could say boo ... and then try to justify yourself and get em back.

i know people it happened to and the way the just throw stuff bout you could be looking a t a bit of damge to expensive glass etc and the stress of trying to justify yourself.

a'the best

sauer
 
I think that a situation like this is the nightmare of everyone who spends time in the countryside but clearly when shooting you are left even more vulnerable as all it takes is for the nutters to make up some story about you pointing the rifle at them, or threatening to shoot them, and you are in big trouble. They know, of course, that it is impossible for you to disprove their statements and that you have absolutely no come back at them so they can say, or do, what they like. When we factor in the PC paranoia running rife in the police and society in general when it comes to "guns" then this compounds our problem.

I am aware that some of the cycling nutters (probably the same demographic as are out to cause trouble for shooters) are using head mounted cameras to record the "sins" of motorists. I've seen some of the footage for which motorists were prosecuted and, it must be said, that in most cases the cyclist appeared to be in the wrong and appeared to engineer himself into a situation where conflict was certain so he could put his expensive head mounted camera to good use. At no time in the footage I've seen did the motorist engineer any disruption to the cyclist while it was clear that everything done by the cyclist was aimed at putting him into conflict with the motorist with a view to provoking a reaction and then using video of it to harass and victimise the motorist. Clearly you've seen something similar here Donsider as the people you met were intent on causing trouble and focused on giving the impression that you were putting them at danger while, all the time, by not being polite and helpful they were actually putting themselves in what they fancied to be "danger." It is impossible for us to deal with such ignorance and arrogance.

Now, I think you were lucky that you got a policeman who perhaps had some appreciation of what you were trying to do or who formed the opinion that your new found friends were a bunch of interferring busy-bodies. However if the policeman involved had been one of the interferring busy-bodies himself then you might have found yourself in big trouble. It is perhaps only by dint of luck that you retain your rifles today.

The police might argue that you are innocent until proven guilty but that will not keep your rifles in your safe I would suspect.

So, maybe this is a discussion we all need to have. How do we protect ourselves against this sort of busy-body interference in our sport? The busy-body knows only too well that if he keeps up this sort of harassment then he will drive us away, reduce the ground we can stalk and the ultimate outcome is that it becomes almost impossible to stalk and that is his intention. We see the same thing with the busy-body RSPB and gamekeepers - how do you prove you didn't kill some bird which some busy-body claims they found dead on your ground? How do you prove that he brought it with him in the back of his car? I really don't have answers to these questions but would be interested in what others do in such situation and in what we should do when a busy-body starts making unfounded statements to police.
 
I cannot remenber the text of your post exactly but may be worth printing it off and giving it to the PC reinforcing your points.remenber thinking at the time it was good. the more we can show police how tolerant we are the better respect we can get from them.
 
That's true, we never lay claim to those ancient lands, but anyway nor is there a "Right to Roam" :smug::p:lol:

ha ha ha..couldn't help it mate. Anyhow, I'm a stalker and a hill walker, and I have to agree with both parties on the subject. The stalker obviously finds it a pain in the backside that people walk over his grounds, disturb his wildlife, and could potentially appear in the line of sight at any time,,,as well as causing trouble with the local police at times too of course. On the other hand though, if the land really is free to hill walkers and we all have a legitimate right to use the hills as we see fit, well, then it's not much fun either having to be afraid of accidentally getting shot, or being confronted by an armed member of the shooting community argueing 'their' case.

We don't want to end up like some places in the world where land is so private that you can legally get shot by entering a step 'over the line',,nor do you want to be unable to enjoy your own land for because it's either not safe, or hill walkers are ruining it for you. I guess the best thing is to apply to the local council for 'private access' rights and then signpost in the relevant areas.

I take on board what you say PKL, but good manners and politeness costs nothing. Yes, everyone should enjoy the countryside and all what it can offer. I spent years making films for television advertising the beauty of the Scottish Landscate and to get people out and to enjoy it.

There are those responsible people who, when approaoched, respect your wishes and see your point. However, there are those also who could not give a dame and do as and when they please, the sort of person who would light a bonfire when you have hung washing out.

I guess we just have to put up with them................!
 
Mate of mine shot a fox that was worrying the girls horses at his livery yard, so he sat up one evening and gave it the goodnight juice with an unmoderated 30-06. Next door neighbour starts shouting abuse about his daughter saw what he did and is now crying and upset and he cant use a 30-06 on that land cos it is too small because he knows because he was once in the army...blah f***ng blah. The next day a WPC shows up and with a bored tone in her voice asks him for his side of "events". Off she went quite happy and called on the neighbour and gave him a verbal warning about harrassment of my mate and threatening behaviour....justice is done;):D
 
A few weeks ago we had a few words with a neighbour about a boundary dispute. Over two weeks later we get a phone call from the police , this guy had played the race card claiming all sorts, any way long and short was I asked PC what should we do if we have any dealings with him again.
His advice was to record everything said on a mobile or similar AS THEY HAVE TO, TO COVER THEIR AR**S.
What a joke .
If even the police are not believed in court or by superiors what hope have the rest of us got ? :(

Nick.
 
had a similar incident 10 yrs ago when i took the shoot over and stopped the locals using an unofficial footpath for saftey reasons ie shooting in progress ,woman said i threatened to shoot her !police turned up at work lucky for me they didnt believe her ,sour grapes ,then the previous keeper complained i was shootin rabbits with a high powered air rifle too close to the road ,sour grapes again ,needless to say keep the local fuzz in tea when they come round to keep up with whats going on in the countryside :)
 
I have always considered that as a stalker/game shooter I must recognise and accept that there are persons who are very much opposed to what I do. I must accept that they have the right to have that stance and accept that no matter what I do or say most will never accept my legal right to go about my sport. In an ideal world we should both be able to live with and respect each others views but in reality it is not going to happen.
This is the main reason if I see other persons whilst out stalking I avoid any meeting with the best being that they do not even know I am there. This is wrong that I am almost hiding what I do but I believe that under the circumstances described by Donsider he is fortunate how things turned out.
I would assume that the male who reported him to the Police did not know him. The Police would have gone to the land owner and from this established Donsider as the stalker on the ground and no doubt did a lot of background checks before their approach to him. What is certain is that whatever the couple reported to the Police the man and his wife were not prepared to add onto the story. Had they done so the situation may have been different. What options would have been left open to the Police had this couple claimed that Donsider had shouted and swore at them, pointed his firearm etc This is what your Pc meant Nick 100 in that they have to cover their arses. A situation is reported and they must act. Using their discretion is no longer an option.
I certainly would recommend either avoidance or recording conversations.
 
It's a sad state of affairs, but I agree with Gazza in every way. As I understand it the situation in Scotland is even worse than E&W because open access is universal subject to observing a few commonsense rules. Thank heaven it's a lot more remote up there, and fieldsports are more accepted.

I try my utmost to avoid passersby and even horse riders out in the countryside, and pretty much steer clear of bridleways and footpaths likely to be used by them. It often means nipping round to the other side of the hedge, but a stalker is more likely to spot others before being seen. This skulking behaviour is embarrassing to me, but the last thing I would do now is to try and reason with anyone because they're almost certain to be hostile.

The average person hasn't any idea of what stalking or any form of quarry shooting entails. If they come along and screw up your chances just what in a practical sense are you supposed to do? You can't approach them with your rifle on your shoulder in case they feel threatened and panic. Do you stash it somewhere, and worry about it every second you're separated from it? Either way you're culpable, so there's no answer other than to prevent any sort of situation occurring. Best to clear off, and come back some other time.

You can rest assured that the landowner doesn't want any trouble or complaints arising from your activities. He wants you to be invisible and just take his money. You're very likely to lose your permission if there's any bother from the general public or the law go round to see him.
 
Members will recall a post of mine, the Urban Twit, regarding a meeting I had with someone when setting out stalking on one of my stalking grounds here in Aberdeenshire last week. I reported on this persons attitude to my request as to where he intended walking so that I would know his whereabouts, for safety reasons et al.

Well last night I had a call from Grampian Police........

"Nothing to worry about Mr. Donsider but do you recall your activities last Tuesday evening near Alford......?"

The penny dropped.. "Yes I do" I replied, and then the constable asked for my recollection of the evening and my meeting with a man and woman. I gave him my full account of the meeting and my follow up meeting with the Farm Manager and that I even recalled the events of the evening in my Game Book/Journal. I even told the constable that I gave a post of the account on this forum.

"Thankyou very much Mr. Donsider". said the contable. This is not quite how the other side reported the situation". However, I did advise the constable that I had a right of access and was undertaking a rural activity and that he was interfering with my executing that activity both safely and effectively. Remember I had no witnesses.

The constacle told me that the person in question was going on to him about his so called "Right to Rome" and that there shouldn't be people going about with high powered guns and that I was aggressive and that he did not see why he had to answer my questions. The constable told me, after further discussion, that there was no cause for concern on my part and that he would get back to the person (Mr. Twitt )and advise him accordingly.

What is interesting here is that this person reported our meeting to the Police and his rather creative interpretation of events. And that the Police, all be it taking a few days, checked me out as to where I lived, what conditions were on my certificate, my occupation and as to the land being suitable for stalking before contacting me and finally, that there is now a recording of the event on file.

Thank goodness I kept my cool and in no way either provoked or exacerbated the situation. Who know what could have happened then? A friend tells me that my firearms could have been removed pending a full Police enquirey. .......And all on the word of a "know all"

Not wanting to lift the lid ff a hornets nest but I feel that perhaps the Shooting organisations such as BASC etc. should have a higher profile in incidents like this and that they should follow up these incidents and advise these members of the public accordingly. Here in Scotland there is no such thing as a "Right to Rome" but responsible access and that this access should not interfere with legitimate rural activities and pursuits. There is a television advertising campaign here on Scottish Television regarding this. I am sure there are many other stalkers who have had expensive stalking ruined because of hill walkers.

After talking with the constable, who I should say was very understanding, helpfull and supportive, did agree that these sorts of incidents do arrise and, sadly, by the same mindframe but they have a duty to follow them up.

I think we should always watch our Ps and Qs when coming accross these people whilst out stalking, that is, if you don't want a call from the Police.....


Donsider

Hi donsider i know the area well very nice & plenty deer & read you last thread on this matter. As you say about our P's & Q's but you dont have to take there rubbish give as good as the give & yeh the right to roam act but country persuits have more right over the walker its in there on the act next time record him on your phone & let police listen to the ignorant ****. Even tho he had a witness they/she couldent be used as there not an indipendant witness ie another walker etc passing by to see/hear it all but yes be as sivil as you can as you did but you dont have to take s**t because you have guns or i dont any way. Ps is it LW estate you were on???
 
A year or two ago whilst out stalking, I bumped into an elderly couple as they passed I said hello, they in turn asked me what I was doing, we talked for a good half hour. I was really overly nice, to cut a long story short we left on very good terms so I thought, untill the day after when I recieved a call from kircudbrightshire police asking me If I was stalking in that area, I new the policeman who called he had my mobile, I told him what had happend he was fine about my explaination. What the couple had said was there was a man with a rifle basically,I just think if I had not known this policeman personally anything could of happend.

Normally if I see or hear anyone I try my utmost to avoid contact ,on this occasion I couldnt do so due to lack of cover .
 
Donsider you are lucky if this is the first time its happened to you, I have this problem three or four times a year on average,often the same people making the complaints, luckily I have quite a good relationship with the police.
The worst case I had was to be confronted by the police in the middle of the estate one evening they had a report from
a walker that they had come upon an unlocked vehicle in the woods with a rifle on the back seat, untrue may I add the vehicle was locked and on the back seat was a rifle slip no rifle [I was back in the vehicle when confronted by the police]
My word against complainant no charges brought but note made on my file at firearms licensing.
 
Back
Top