New Stalkers

crouch valley

Well-Known Member
I know this will open a can of worms but here goes. Do you think that new stalkers to the sport should be mentored at least a year before they go out on there own or have at least level 1 dsc. I say this because of a conversation I was having with some one the other day which led to me thinking that any one can get a firearms and go out and shoot deer even if they don't no what they are doing. Im not saying im a expert ive only been stalking for fifteen or so years and im still learning but I think if you hunt something you should know about your quarry first. Take Germany for example they have to take a hunters exam before they are aloud out to hunt.
 
I suspect within the next 5 years, DSC L1 will become compulsary. It will bring us inline with continental Europe with their hunting (traditions).

Looking back, now having my L2, I can see the requirment for some sort of training, but I think it will be that hard to impliment, do you grant "Grandfather rights" to those who have been stalking/hunting for 5 years/10 years, where do you draw the line.......As the FC are already insisting on L1 with progression towards L2, to stalk on land and L2 to hold the lease, I recon they will also within the next 5 years allow L2 only. I think others (Forrestry management) will shortly follow.

When it becomes compulsary, you can bet your last £, that the price of these courses, L1 and L2 (registration) will increase.

TJ
 
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I dont think its a bad idea. Im new to stalking and have only gotten into it properly over the last year or so. I have now taken 16 deer in different conditions and experience some of the different shot reactions and have also completed my level 1 and look to do my level 2 in the next year or 2. I am now at the point where I would be comfortable in taking a deer unaccompanied and know i could complete the gralloch to the right standard and have half a chance of getting to a shootable distance and take the shot. I think its wrong that someone (myself included) who can go out, legally with little to no experience when there fac has just hit the mat and go out and potentially shoot a deer and quite probably cock it up. Equally I can see why people are so heavily against the idea of the DSC becoming mandatory.

George
 
Im fairly new to Deer stalking i have be rifle shooting for a long time but yes i think a dsc1 or other cousre should be a must.As there is so much more involed in shooting a Deer than say a fox or rabbit.
I myself want someone with more experience to join me on my first stalk to keep me right .
 
when one says mentoring i take it to mean go out stalking with a person who is time served in the art of deer stalking ,this is the route i took as well as buying stalks with a guide .in my opinium a level one on its own without someone to show you the ropes for some time is really not adequate .my mentor was not a requirement of my f/a cert he just took me under his wing and showed me everything he knows ,invaluble he is now a great mate .i am not knocking leval 1 but it is only a stepping stone, after that guides and mentors like my mate really educate new stalkers in the art .over the years certificates in every walk of life dominate our lives ,chain saw ,spray ,quad, fork truck you name it there is a cert for it stalking is no different ,but without the old boys back in the day i would not have learnt to drive ,put earthmoving plant to work ,keeper a shoot and lastly stalk deer ,if you are new to stalking search out an old boy to help you and if you think you qualify as an old boy try and help a new comer to the sport you never know you might make a mate !:)
 
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hi ive been stalking for 3 years and was introduced to it by my friend and business partner been stalking for 20 years.Ive held a FAC for 20 years mainly 222 lamping. Have been very lucky my first roe buck was a very good head and is on the wall at work along with my first red stag carcase weight 360lbs without head 13 point 42 inch span lovely thing ive shot about 20 roe 6 reds. he has taught me a lot but i now need someone different to further my knowledge and teach me new things it is very hard to find people to do this.I keep thinking about my level 1 but i think i need a little more know how and bottle. It is a good thing to have but have not spoken to anybody who has done it recentley. my mate did it 20 years ago.I joined a syndicate last year its a bit of a bummer not to say names but it has been on here. Wish i had known about this site sooner could have saved me quite a lot of money but you live and learn.
 
Going to raise my head above the parapet here.
I think level one DSC is excellent as a measure of a persons theoretical knowledge of deer and health and safety issues surrounding putting deer into the human food chain. I dont think it does anything to demonstrate a persons ability to stalk, assess a safe shot or take that safe shot and handle the carcass.
Level 2 DSC is far more advanced and, in my opinion, should be the minimum standard required for new stalkers to stalk, unaccompanied and be able to put deer into the human food chain.
I was introduced to stalking by a very experience stalker who is also an accredited witness so each stalk, shot, reaction to shot and grollach was performed and described is great detail. This learning experience has been augmented by stalks with various other experienced stalkers from whom I've learned an incredible amount. Getting my portfolio for level 2 completed and submitted was both difficult (one AW described the ground I stalk on as some of the most difficult woodland broad leaf stalking imaginable) but again highly rewarding.
I now feel comfortable (24 deer since last October)to both stalk, identify a safe shot, take that shot and provide a safe carcass for the food chain.
I'm sure there will be those that disagree with setting DSC level 2 as a minimum but my experience of being recently introduced to stalking and the responsibilities that accompany that privilege lead me to believe its the best way forward. T
 
Crouch Valley,

It may be a can of worms, but you have consensus. As Groach and others rightly point out, it is much more involved. Knowing how to treat the beast with a little dignity in death and gralloching properly are key skills and not things you can really get away with making up as you go along. Like all things, unless you do it regularly, you can have all the theory in the world and still make a hash of it - been there!! The fact that FC and others are stipulating DSCL2 is for good reason and while some may say it is stopping some from pursuing the sport, we will be safer as a community if we have clear accepted standards. We tend to spend a shed load on our kit and don't factor the practice that will make the sport all the more enjoyable. I won't even go into the skills and joy of stalking, which is what I think you refer to in always learning. The shot and the kill are a very small part of a stalk and a culmination and reward for all the other things being done well - the shot is not a rite in a stalk. While the shot is a moment of adrenaline, it is not something to be taken lightly and there is a real responsibility with it that again you need to learn. What is it they say about the thrill of the chase? If you can't enjoy stalking in to watch, should you even be in the sport?

I think you're right and have my head above the parapet with Limulus - and I'm still to complete DSCL2!

E t R
 
Do you think that new stalkers to the sport should be mentored at least a year before they go out on there own or have at least level 1 dsc. I say this because of a conversation I was having with some one the other day which led to me thinking that any one can get a firearms and go out and shoot deer even if they don't no what they are doing.

I would be most interested to know the identity of those Constabularies or Police Forces whose Chief Officers grant firearms authorities to "any one" "even if they don't know what they are doing".

Without being rude if the person you were in conversation really thinks that is the casethey are very naive as to how the licensing system works in the UK. I would even suggest that they, in fact, don't have either an FAC or if they do, not for any form of shooting deer.

To address your question. No absolutely not. Why?

Because the situation in UK is very different form either Europe or the USA in that there are no "public hunting lands" here as there are there.

So to demonstrate "good reason" to have an FAC to stalk deer you have to either:

i) Own or rent your own "forest" and/or the stalking rights or

ii) "Pay by the day" on someone else's land.

In the case of i) it would usually if "new ground" be assessed by the police as to its suitability and in the case of ii) the person from whom you had bought the day would usually insist that you be accompanied if they had any doubt as to you abilities. Indeed even to the extent of directing you as to whichspecific beast to shoot.

A lot of the whole DSC thing is "empire building" and those who seek to suggest it should be imposed as a mandatory requirement to be granted an FAC should be ashamed. Much of it is also totally pointless to many of those who stalk deer only in a set locality.

As an example what is the relevance of knowing about muntjac when all that the stalker ever encounters or shoots are roe deer in Scotland? As an analogy would you suggest that the dedicated pigeon shooter should know about the life cycle of the woodcock or its legal seasons?

Equally testing a person on their knowledge of sika deer is relevant in exactly what way to someone who only ever will require their rifle to shoot a park herd of fallow deer in Lincolnshire?

And how can ignorance of the legal seasonfor roe deer in Scotland be a justification for denying a Welsh roe deer stalker an FAC? How many "guns" who maybe shoot inland reared mallard on one drive on a Northamptonshire pheasant shoot would be able to tell you the legal season for wild mallard on the foreshore?

Yet that is just how the dictat of "No DSC = No FAC" would no doubt apply if translated to feathered game shooting. Refusing a firearms authority to a safe and competent shot because they fail an arbitrary test demanding they know all about a quarry that they will NEVER enciunter on "their patch" let alone ever even want to shoot?

To my mind a lot of DSC 1 seems to be asking questions that are also totally irrelevant to the matter it purports to establish knowledge of which is deer stalking. Almost an "Aren't I clever because I know all this about sika deer?" sort of thing. They might be interesting but they are nevertheless irrelevant.

If you personally want to do it then fine. But don't ever please seek to suggest that because you have it others must also have it.

There is too much of this "Nobody else should be allowed to do anything other than in the way that I do it and then only in the way that I say they should".

So. For UK? No I don't think it should be required in fact I would and do strongly oppose it.

In France and or Germany? Well they do have a compulsory hunting licence. But answer me this...how many fatalities do they have each year in the hunting (shooting) field compared to us (with no compulsory test) in UK?

Now tell me that their way of regulating their system "works" better on the continent than does our system here!
 
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Not all new stalkers have an abundance of WEALTH and cannot afford DSC 1/DSC2 when they first get into stalking. Some people have had years of experience shooting ( fox control ect ) and then decide to get into stalking do they need all of the above ? If i had to have the dsc1 before i started i would never bother ( low wages wife kids mortgage ). We need more people to get involved in our sport or the ANTis will have the perfect exscuse to lobby for more controls. Sorry NO i dont agree.And yes i am saveing for my DSC1 but it takes time......

ATB

Steve.................
 
As an example from a thread elsewhere:

Questions from DSC 1 and DSC 2:

272 a muntjac seen in velvet in december must be ?

269 how would you describe the colour of an adult muntjac in summer coat ?

And please, pray tell, why a red deer stalker in Devon should be denied an FAC because he fails his DSC through not knowing the answer to these two questions OR ANY OTHER QUESTION ABOUT MUNTJAC?
 
As an example from a thread elsewhere:



And please, pray tell, why a red deer stalker in Devon should be denied an FAC because he fails his DSC through not knowing the answer to these two questions OR ANY OTHER QUESTION ABOUT MUNTJAC?

thats a simple answer
any person that does not hav any knowledge of any other quarry they are entitled to shoot on the license they hav applied for, surely is a reason for refusal regardless
but the bigger issue is why you need to pass dsc so you can be granted an fac in the first place
and that is the only question that should arise.......
 
Enfield Spares, I think your opening paraphrase of the OP in your diatribe is a little unfair. The essence of his statement, and I think with some justification, is that while our Boys in Blue carry out due diligence on the integrity of an applicant, they do not check their experience. It is entirely possible and further does happen that an upstanding citizen can successfully apply for and receive a firearms certificate for a deer legal calibre, with no previous experience of deer stalking whatsoever. He may have a closed certificate, but once the land is passed, does that mean he has all the tools available to shoot deer safely on his land? What decision making process does a stalker with no previous knowledge go through before pulling the trigger? Would you want someone like that on or in proximity to your land?

Your reasoning against a form of validation is I fear somewhat myopic. To suggest that wider knowledge is only sought to be able to cock a snoot at the next man is frankly banal. You are not comparing like with like. The point is about getting the person the knowledge in general in the first place - be it only for his local area or otherwise. But how many people only stalk one type of deer and in one area? If someone is cleared for their area, would they then need clearance for another area? By providing a national standard, which by definition has to cater for the majority and therefore cover the common UK species, you can measure people easily. Some 15,000 people have taken DSCL1 of their own free will to date, so it can't all be bad. And to cap it all, the OP is not even saying DSCL1 should be compulsory. He is quite rightly saying you should at least know your quarry - and I therefore suggest you are agreeing with him - albeit in a rather odd manner.

Dekit, Money, or lack of it is not a reason for not being able to prove you are a responsible shooter by knowing your quarry. I'll warrant you have spent way more than the cost of a course on your rifle and equipment. Do you buy and drive a car without learning to drive and getting a licence? While I fully acknowledge that some will have had years of other experience, they still need species specific knowledge. There is reasonable evidence to suggest that there are plenty coming to the sport who have no experience and it is these people that the OP is asking about. I note that despite your disagreeing with DSCL1 being compulsory (again, not what the OP asked) you are still saving for your DSCL1 - to me that shows you understand the value of being able to prove you understand the obligations of being a responsible stalker, despite the other shooting experience you clearly have. I admire you for investing in that rather than some other kit (or food for the kids...!!)

We can be a free society and a regulated one at the same time.
 
thats a simple answer
any person that does not hav any knowledge of any other quarry they are entitled to shoot on the license they hav applied for, surely is a reason for refusal regardless
but the bigger issue is why you need to pass dsc so you can be granted an fac in the first place
and that is the only question that should arise.......

Point well made - or should we be conditioned to species perhaps?!
Some of the legislation is made to make it manageable - both when changes occur - such as deer increasing in population and moving to new geographies - and to ensure we the licence holder are not breaching some cross linked sub clause with every step. can you imagine the wait to get a variation if this were the case?

Agree that the issue on the compulsory DSC, before receiving a deer legal calibre is a tough one - but is not a question the OP posed.
 
Well said Eric.
As usual the direction of the original post tends to go off at a tangent.
The Op suggests perhaps a year of mentored stalking. I would suggest that 1 year should include a minimum number of stalks and a minimum number of grallochs IF the rifle is to be used for shooting deer, or, a longer period of mentoring until sufficient knowledge and safety can be demonstrated. This would require a separate control over target shooters rights to hold deer allowable calibres.
This, however, would be an administrative nightmare for the police. How would they be able to police a dual system, I dont think they could.
The current system works in terms of control and public safety (for the most part) but the current system of control for shooting deer is somewhat lacking and I believe this is what the Op was referring to.
We must accept that we are more closely watched now than at any other time in history and that having certified evidence of competence is an inevitable requirement in the foreseeable future. T
 
Im sorry but at no point in my op did I state that you should have your DSC 1 before you could have a FAC as usual we go slightly off topic. What I did state was you should be mentored or have DSC1 before you hunt deer for there own safteys sake not just the deers. E.G would a untrained or novice stalker be able to point out a notifiable disease. Would you want some body to have the ground next to yours shooting any deer they see with no managment plan at all posably takeing out all the big bucks. As others have stated you save and pay for stalking and kit so why not DSC1. The DSC is a good grounding for the understanding off all deer species law and saftey so why would you be against it. I only have muntjac and fallow on my ground but I have stalked Red, Roe, and CWD and im no rich man it has tacken a lot of saveing so surly knowing about other species is usefull when you take it else where. I have and will continue to mentor new and young stalkers and try to perswade any one to do there DSC1.
 
Im sorry but at no point in my op did I state that you should have your DSC 1 before you could have a FAC as usual we go slightly off topic. What I did state was you should be mentored or have DSC1 before you hunt deer for there own safteys sake not just the deers. E.G would a untrained or novice stalker be able to point out a notifiable disease. Would you want some body to have the ground next to yours shooting any deer they see with no managment plan at all posably takeing out all the big bucks. As others have stated you save and pay for stalking and kit so why not DSC1. The DSC is a good grounding for the understanding off all deer species law and saftey so why would you be against it. I only have muntjac and fallow on my ground but I have stalked Red, Roe, and CWD and im no rich man it has tacken a lot of saveing so surly knowing about other species is usefull when you take it else where. I have and will continue to mentor new and young stalkers and try to perswade any one to do there DSC1.
+ 1 on that crouch
 
I think there needs to be some sort of mandatory training..........shooting deer is a different ball game to shooting rabbits / fox. The DMQ qualifications in my eyes are flawed, however they are as good as it gets at the moment. As mentioned above, the day will come shortly when DMQs are a requirement not a request.. Whether we agree with this or not the ball has already started to roll what with all FC ground now requiring a L2. Its only a matter of time before the rest of the forestery companies follow suit.

Enfieldspares - Strathclyde Police do not ask for or require DMQL1 to grant a Section 1 for deer control. They simply follow Guidelines and require 'good reason to possess'.......I would suggest some of the English forces take a leaf out of their book and stop making it up as they go along.
 
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I can see both sides of this argument. I would count myself as a pretty inexperienced stalker (2 Sika & 3 Roe so far), so my perspective is that of someone relatively new to stalking. The problem I can see with a stipulation that new stalkers have a mentor for 1 year or however long, is that some may not know anyone who will act as mentor. The outcome of that, then, would be that ONLY those with 'mates on the inside', or bottomless pockets, would be able to even get started, and stalking would become a closed shop. That can't be in the interests of the sport. I have recently done my DSC1, something I chose to do entirely voluntarily because I wanted to learn more, and I for one am glad I did it. Apart from the actual study aspects of the course, there's also a great deal to be learned from just chatting to others during breaks etc. I came away from the course knowing far more than when I started, so I'm happy with that. All that being said, I have been lucky enough to be able to have some paid outings with some highly experienced and knowledgeable stalkers, and it is from people such as this that you will learn the stuff that simply can't be taught in the classroom. I've found that each has their own slightly different approach to the way they go about stalking, fieldcraft, kit, the gralloch, extraction and so on, and that by going out with different mentors it's possible to cherry pick all sorts of tips & tricks to ultimately make yourself a better stalker, and I would say that I have learned at least as much, if not more, by doing as I did from the DSC. I already feel quite confident in my ability to go out and stalk unaccompanied. For my part, then, I would say a combination of *both* DSC1 *and* mentoring has worked well for me, and would recommend that approach to others. BUT having said all that.....

....do I think mentoring and/or DSC1 should be forced upon us all? No. I think a force's decision to impose a mentoring condition should depend on the individual applicant's circumstances and experience. Mentoring might obviously make sense if someone has zero knowledge or experience, or has just done DSC1 for instance but never actually been stalking. It would make less sense for the teenager who's already been out with Dad 100's of times previously with the estate rifle, but is just applying for his own FAC for the first time, for instance. Conversely, I suppose there might be some out there who have been stalking for years, and doing it wrong for years, who might benefit from a DSC course. <Dons tin hat....:D>

Ultimately, an FAC-issuing force's concern is for the public safety. They are not deer experts. If an FLO feels that on balance the world would be a safer place if John Doe was supervised for a bit to begin with, then fine. To assume that we *all* need hand-holding would be an unfair generalisation in my view.

Re. the duration of a mentoring condition, it would make more sense to me if the stipulation for mentoring were for a certain number of stalks, rather than a period of time. A year's worth of mentoring might be 1 stalk for one person, or 50 for someone else. Will they both be equally experienced at the end of that year? Of course not.
 
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Good luck trying to attract a new generation and further generation of new stalkers (not sons or daughters of stalkers) with a mandatory "DSC2 esque" standard of qualification.

FAC should in no way shape or form be linked to the DSC training or any other quarry related training. you are asking for trouble. just look around and see how badly this country administers any form of limited access training, security clearance etc etc.

Christ we had illegal immigrants cleaning offices inside houses of parliament, registered sex offenders living next to schools and working in schools!!

I understand the concerns about someone with a new FAC going out, buying a rifle and drilling the first thing that looks like a deer whilst not realising there is a footbath/bridleway/children's playpark behind that hedge.

Not everyone wants to get involved in stalking to the level that DSC2 expects.
have the stalkers out there have never done or would want to complete a gralloch and carcase examination.
An entire industry exists on people who own their own firearms and pay for stalks and let the supplier sort out the recovery, gralloch and preparation of the carcase.

Equally there are people at the other end who have no intention of selling their deer into the food chain, they own or lease their own land, probably have had firearms or shotguns or both for years. do they now have to do a DSC2 at vast expense to justify the practice they have been doing for years?

The whole MANDATORY aspect makes me shudder.
surely I am not the only one here who thinks this is a disaster waiting to happen.

On the mentoring aspect we have an duty of care to our sport, (and it is ours, not the government's, the police or any other body that cares to presume that they can regulate it on our behalf).
We should all be introducing people to the sport, educating them and mentoring them. Even if it is only your own kids or friends kids, business partners etc etc.

My problem with mentoring as it stands is it the usual blanket statement put in place by a governing body in order to cover THEIR arse...not yours! they couldn't give a toss if you mentor is any good, actually knows what he is doing or has just been "doing it" for years. like above, a mentor with 50 years stalking may have only shot 5 deer.
Its all a bit too fluffy.

On the plus side I suspect that if it all goes mandatory the 2nd hand gun market will explode and prices of barely used rifles will plummet as people ditch the sport in favour of golf!
 
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