Richard Prior comments

Steve

Member
Saw this in Shooting Times and thought it would be useful here -

Question
A friend of mine would like to stalk in Scotland, but his firearms certificate says it has been issued only for the control of vermin. The landlords of the estate say all deer on their land are classed as vermin. Can he legally shoot deer on this land?


Answer
Most police forces are strict in their interpretation of the word vermin, and it is unlikely to be the same as that applied by your landlords (Scottish Woodlands).

However, with your written permission to shoot deer on the land you lease, there should be no difficulty for your friend to apply for a variation on his certificate to include deer.

This assumes that he uses a rifle calibre that complies with Scottish law.

Failing this, he may well be committing an offence.
 
There has never been a legal case to test whether Fox is vermin, far less deer. However there are no 'fox Acts' and whilst muntjac have no close season its fair to assume they are perhaps a different issue. There is also the estate rifle principle which would allow the 'legal' shooting of deer. Its also a classic case of applying for the correct calibre as no .308 will be conditioned only for vermin. Whilst the .24 calibres will often do for the small deer in Scotland, I would nevertheless go for a larger calibre not wishing to look a gift horse in the mouth.
I would talk to my FEO explain and ask him for his advice then I would apply for a .308, as a letter from your friend and a check on land clearance would sort this.
 
An interesting hypothetical Q and A.
I am a bit surprised the Answer uses the phrase "may well be committing an offence".

My certificate makes the issue clear for me. It states "it is an offence to fail to comply with any of the conditions below". see photo
When you sign your certificate you are agreeing to those conditions.

So if the "condition" in the hypothetical certificate states that a rifle may only be used for "vermin" and does not include "AOLQ". then using that rifle for deer would be an offence.

Whether or not it would be in the public interest to pursue a prosecution is another debate. One which would take into account the calibre, the species of deer etc..

M.



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An old thread indeed! In my father's Day in the 1950s and 1969s roe deer on many estates where driven pheasant was the be all and end all roe deer were, yes, seen as vermin.
 
I would imagine that Steve gave up on anyone replying to his post some time ago. He's quite possibly retired from shooting by now.
Quite a interesting post by him also on copper bullets back then with one or two existing members contributing including one who was 67 then and been on in the last week, possible they may know more.
Sorry post not by him but made interesting comments. Member emcC was in the mix and was on just now, so he may be able to help?
 
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I appreciate that it's an old thread, but if I shoot a hare with a rifle with a vermin only condition, am I breaking my conditions? (Just for the record before anyone shouts at me.. very few hares around me and I leave well alone)
 
I appreciate that it's an old thread, but if I shoot a hare with a rifle with a vermin only condition, am I breaking my conditions? (Just for the record before anyone shouts at me.. very few hares around me and I leave well alone)
Does your condition actually include the word only?
 
Does your condition actually include the word only?
Just used for, not only used for not sure I would be happy in court trying to get my guns back over one word 😞 I am waiting on land approval for 2 sites, theoretically on the ballance of odds,the the chance of me being found to be shooting outside the terms of my license are minimal, but the result would not be ideal. So I bide my time and give the FLO a nudge here and there.
 
I appreciate that it's an old thread, but if I shoot a hare with a rifle with a vermin only condition, am I breaking my conditions? (Just for the record before anyone shouts at me.. very few hares around me and I leave well alone)
If it says Vermin and any other lawful quarry on the other hand you are good to go! If they are following the guidance then they should apply that so why not ask for it.
 
Just used for, not only used for not sure I would be happy in court trying to get my guns back over one word 😞 I am waiting on land approval for 2 sites, theoretically on the ballance of odds,the the chance of me being found to be shooting outside the terms of my license are minimal, but the result would not be ideal.
As VSS points out, the word “only” changes the meaning of the condition completely. It is not merely a matter of one word used or omitted thoughtlessly. Without that word, the condition is that you must use the rifle for the “good reason” you gave when applying for it. If “only” is included, it then means you cannot also use it for other purposes, although there is some question as to whether the police force would be making an error in imposing such a condition.
 
Just used for, not only used for not sure I would be happy in court trying to get my guns back over one word 😞 I am waiting on land approval for 2 sites, theoretically on the ballance of odds,the the chance of me being found to be shooting outside the terms of my license are minimal, but the result would not be ideal. So I bide my time and give the FLO a nudge here and there.
If it doesn't include the word "only", then yes, you can shoot a hare. Vermin is your primary good reason for owning the rifle, but that doesn't preclude you from shooting other quarry, provided that the calibre is legal for that purpose and you have appropriate authority to shoot on that land.
 
If it says Vermin and any other lawful quarry on the other hand you are good to go! If they are following the guidance then they should apply that so why not ask for it.
Vermin control and zeroing , and use at approved clubs. No ALQ so will stay clear or hare. Mind you, the only hare I have seen in the last 30 years was trotting along the back of a clay shoot totally oblivious to the gun shots. (He must have read the rules on not shooting live animals 😉 )
 
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