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Thread: How to improve groups further?

  1. #1

    How to improve groups further?

    I have been quietly working up a load for my .243
    I am self taught but thanks to the kind people on you tube that can be bothered to make some very good instructional videos I have learnt a lot and built up my kit over time.

    Out of my last group of loads, loaded at 0.3 grain increments, the smallest 4 shot group measured 57mm. So I am definitely on the right track.

    My question now is what do I do to shrink that group further?

    I am using once fired factory brass (fired in my rifle) prepared as consistently as possible. So I don’t know how I could improve that aspect any more than I am already doing.

    Regarding bullet seating, I have the bullet so it is just not quite touching the rifling.

    Any advice would be very much welcomed.

    Thanks in advance

    Miles

  2. #2
    Start playing with your oal. Start testing the same powder charge with the bullet seated further down into the case, I go down a half turn on the seating die until the group tightens up.
    Brian.

    Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you......

  3. #3
    Miles

    Thanks for your post, it prompts a couple of questions.

    57 mm or 5.7 mm?
    What range are the groups being shot at? Off a bipod? With or without a moderator? With or without a rear bag?
    What size of groups are you getting from the original factory ammunition at the same range and shot with the same setup?
    What target do you use?
    What brand of brass are you using?
    What powder and bullets are you using?
    What is your brass prep process? Do you neck turn? Are you using bushing dies? Full length resize or neck size only? Due you sort the brass by weight? Do you sort the bullets?
    You mention seating off the lands, by how much? 10 thou, 100 thou?
    Do you have a local mentor who has sat and looked over your shoulder at your brass prep, loading and load testing?

    Although the Forum can and will assist you, sometimes it takes someone sitting beside you to spot opportunities for improvement. My recommendation would be to find one person local to you that you can turn to on a regular basis for help and advice on reloading.

    Good luck. JCS

  4. #4
    Miles

    Can you clarify what distance you are shooting at?

    I really do not want to take the wind from your sails but if this is at 100yds then 57mm to be brutally honest is not a particularly good group. I appreciate you said you are working up a load but even initial groups really should be in the sub 1'' or at most 1 1/2'' group.

    Having said all that, if this is noticeably better than anything you have shot before then well done. However, even factory ammo at 100yds should in the average rifle be able to produce sub 1 1/2'' groups.

    I would be keen to know what make of rifle you are using, what twist rate is in your rifle and what bullet weights are you trying out?

    (I have been typing this at the same time as JCS above and see he has covered similar points)

  5. #5
    Thanks JCS and others for your very quick responses, I have tried to answer a few questions below:
    As I said, I am a self taught novice, so please go easy on me!! I definitely feel I am going in the right direction, there is a correlation in my group sizes so I must be doing something right!

    57 mm or 5.7 mm?
    Yes, 57mm or 5.7 cm
    What range are the groups being shot at? Off a bipod?
    100 meters of a bipod,
    With or without a moderator? With or without a rear bag?
    With Mod, with rear bag

    What size of groups are you getting from the original factory ammunition at the same range and shot with the same setup?

    Exactly the same set up but factory Remi Accutip 95grain = 20mm group

    What target do you use?

    One with 1inch squares and a red dot in the middle

    What brand of brass are you using?

    Remi factory

    What powder and bullets are you using?

    Sierra 100gr spitzer boat tail , Hodgdon h4350 39.2 grains

    What is your brass prep process?

    Do you neck turn? No
    Are you using bushing dies? No
    Full length resize or neck size only? Untill now, full neck but I have bought a neck die for the next batch.
    Due you sort the brass by weight? No
    Do you sort the bullets? No, they seem very consistant

    You mention seating off the lands, by how much? 10 thou, 100 thou?

    A quarter turn on the seating die!

    Do you have a local mentor who has sat and looked over your shoulder at your brass prep, loading and load testing?

    I would very much like to find some kind sole that would give me a couple of hours of their time.

    Thanks Guys


    Miles



  6. #6
    Miles

    Firstly, please take any of the above posts as constructive criticism.

    My initial concern may have been that the twist rate for bullets used was not correct but you would perhaps then expect to see off circular holes in the target if they were not being stabilised correctly. However, 20mm groups are what you would really hope for and jumping up 5grns to the new bullets I don't think would make that much of a difference but it might. However, some rifles just don't like certain bullets. That said, I would suggest that Sierra are generally noted for their superb performance in both accuracy and ability to kill deer.

    What is the rifle you are using and do you know the twist rate?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by 2428 miles View Post
    Regarding bullet seating, I have the bullet so it is just not quite touching the rifling.
    Please forgive my comment if you are experienced enough to know that you are on dangerous ground here, if not back away now and carry out a proper dimensional measurement, pressure could get out of hand very quickly here.

  8. #8
    you could get a thousand answers i would test the rifle again with the box ammo first just to check all is ok then look at your home loads

  9. #9
    Its easier said than done, but get a mentor.. this way you can compare your process to his/hers and also ask questions verbally which generally leads to less ambiguity..

    I would also advise against seating close to the lands if you dont have some fairly accurate way to measure it and your not 'au-fait' with the procedure.

    Do you have a comparator? This is useful as you can check to see if your loaded rounds are the same and consistent dimensions to the ogive opposed to the tip of the bullet. If you have no way of measuring your chamber accurately, i would stick to SAAMI spec length and play with powder.

    Without sounding negative, if you have played with the powder and bullets in question and are only getting 57mm groups then i would be changing powders or bullets as that seems underwhelming. As said before, look at your twist rate to figure out your ideal bullet weight.

    6mmBR.com Reviews of Reloading tools, Bipods Harris Pod-loc, Cleaning Supplies, Redding Wilson Dies, K&M Tools, Neck turning Tools, Shooting Accessories and supplies. < for OAL guages and comparators.

    To measure your twist rate:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/1967spud...48/tl5MMbS5260

    Once you know your twist, you can plug in the bullet data along with the twist to see whether the combo works here
    http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

    Things to do in the meantime,

    1: trim all cases to the same length ie find the shortest and trim rest to this length.
    2: weigh your cases and batch them..
    3: Look at the way your weighing your powder to ensure consistency.

    Once you have the info above:

    IF the bullets in theory should be fine, load them to SAAMI length with varying powder charges and start again. Once you have found the most accurate charge weight (and verified it ie shot a couple of 5 shot groups with the same load to ensure its not a fluke..) then i would load develop by varying the OAL to the ogive in 20thou increments. ie 0.020, 0.040, 0.060 and 0.080, obviously ensuring that you dont load the round out of SAAMI parameters.


    Its just my 2p's worth but works for me. Dont worry about neck tension and neck turning yet, the % increase in accuracy is small for the time and money outlaid.

    If your up my way and need any help, just shout.

  10. #10
    Having read the comments above, I agree with K&a go back to a known point, ie the factory ammo giving the 20mm group, this will rule out issues such as, scope shift, crown damage, fouling (I take it you clean your bore CORRECTLY!). And most importantly YOU!
    If you can group sub 1" then your reload technique needs a little work. Throwing together "book" stated rounds should give sub 40mm groups.
    Keep an open mind, You tube is not the best way to learn, there is some good stuff on there but some rubbish too!

    Learn / get help from an "experienced" reloader, someone who knows his stuff, walks the walk as well as talks the talk!

    Good luck

    Need help PM me!

    Remmy
    Grampian Guns (RFD)
    Independant Moderator / Supressor Suppliers
    ..........for those who like a quiet life !
    Our mission.......Customer satisfaction......plain and simple.

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