L&B Thoughts

Gazza

Well-Known Member
Was having a talk with my local FEO this morning and I brought up the subject of granting handguns for humane dispatch. A definite no for two reasons.
1. If you regularly require a handgun for humane dispatch we would consider that it could be because you are not a fit and competent person to be shooting deer.
2. If you were requiring the handgun as an more convenient way to carry a firearm to carry out humane dispatch eg in thick cover where a rifle may get snagged up who would be looking after your rifle.

I pointed out that as a level 2 qualified person I am by that standard a fit and competent person to shoot deer and that on many occasions that I have used my dog to track deer it has been shot by another person or hit by a vehicle and should not reflect on my abilities. I also pointed out that in the main shot deer that have run are dead on locating but we must still be in a position to deal with one that is not.
On point two they have not or do not wish to consider that I could return my rifle if indeed the wounded beast was shot by myself to a secure location before tracing the wounded animal.
He is going to raise the matter again and give me a call.
 
What a load of cobblers!!!

Just goes to show yet again the total and utter inconsistancy across the whole of the UK with FA law and how these people apply it.

Believe it or not I was offered mine by Kent Police, and have used my dispatch pistol on a several occassions when with clients mostly on wounded Sika stags that my dog has bayed, and I do not take my rifle with me if I am with clients as they are paying me to guide them onto deer.

I hope your FEO see's sense. Follows the recent thread about centralising the FA dept across Scotland by Red Dot................ best of luck;) I think you will need it if they bring it into force.
 
Are they saying there no section 5 firearms granted for use on deer in your area then? If you are taking out clients or tracking on callouts for other people I can't see how their arguments stack up. If you don't do a lot of that kind of work then that often seems to be the reason for not granting,
 
I have asked this before and didnt really get an answer but here goes:

When do you use a pistol for despatch? Is it not easier to just use the rifle?
I have enough crap to carry and wouldnt want another 2lbs on my belt.
I cant see myself ever having the need for one (not that should misread that I dont think others should have them)
 
I have asked this before and didnt really get an answer but here goes:

When do you use a pistol for despatch? Is it not easier to just use the rifle?
I have enough crap to carry and wouldnt want another 2lbs on my belt.
I cant see myself ever having the need for one (not that should misread that I dont think others should have them)

I think there are a number of scenarios where a dispatch pistol is of better use than a rifle, and it also depends on the individuals experience and their position, and by that i mean the kind of stalking they undertake, the ground and the species.

For instance when guiding clients with a dog at foot and you have a wounded Red or Sika stag at last light in deep cover to contend with.

RTA a pistol is a lot easier to carry than a rifle or shotgun.

If you are a forestry worker or have a large cull to carry out with a night licence, a wounded stag in the dark with your dog baying it can be a problem with a rifle and scope, and a shotgun is a bit of a lump to carry round with you whilst stalking.

These are some of the reasons why a dispatch weapon could be authorised and used, but it does depend IMO on the individual applying for it, there must be good reason. If Gazza has good reason, and it appears that he does then his FEO IMO is taking the wrong decision
 
Malc,

You give the answers I expect and can agree with. However in N.Yorks RTAs are dealt with by vets and not stalkers so we cant use that arguement.

My main question though as I have never heard a view on it is how many deer do you think you have to shoot (if you are not a pro) before you would need a pistol. I maintain you would have to be into the hundreds per year before you can reasonably expect to have to NEED a pistol. If you are indeed competent then I would expect a very low percentage of deer to require a follow up and of those an even lower number to require a pistol specifically. Lets say 1 per 100 or less??

As in any arguement these days you can apply a "risk analysis" approach and base need on probabilities. I personally accept the arguement that NO deer should have to suffer but the truth is that some will no matter what. I think that the simple situation is that hand guns were made illegal (wrongly IMO) and that the police perceive that the humane despatch arguement is being used in an attempt to flout the law.

The problem with this perception is that it can result in a negative view of shooters in general from the public and powers that be if they can ever prove the perception to be correct. That is the real danger
 
Last edited:
1. If you regularly require a handgun for humane dispatch we would consider that it could be because you are not a fit and competent person to be shooting deer.
2. If you were requiring the handgun as an more convenient way to carry a firearm to carry out humane dispatch eg in thick cover where a rifle may get snagged up who would be looking after your rifle.

To point 1. The FEO obviously doens't do much shoot. there are plenty of occasions were a discret handgun's beter than a rifle, say RTA and he deer has made it into sombodies garden. A stalker walking down the street wih a rifle over his shoulder is more undesirable that having somebody walk down the road to the deer with a pistol in his pocket. Additionally trying to inject a wounded anuimal with a 150grain pill doing 2700fps up close and personal on possible hard ground is considerable more dodgy than a lead pistol bullet doing just over 1000 fps.

To point2. Why would you assume I would have my rifle with me? I might have secured it in the back of he car and have the bolt in my pocket and returned with the dog. and have given he deer at least an 1 hour or so to stiffen up as per good practice etc......

I hough you had to apply to the home office for section 5's and it was out of the control of the local force(?)( might be wrong), and that they are contacted just to make sure your no an axe murderer for a home visit if demed necessary?
 
My main question though as I have never heard a view on it is how many deer do you think you have to shoot (if you are not a pro) before you would need a pistol. I maintain you would have to be into the hundreds per year before you can reasonably expect to have to NEED a pistol. If you are indeed competent then I would expect a very low percentage of deer to require a follow up and of those an even lower number to require a pistol specifically. Lets say 1 per 100 or less??

As in any arguement these days you can apply a "risk analysis" approach and base need on probabilities. I personally accept the arguement that NO deer should have to suffer but the truth is that some will no matter what. I think that the simple situation is that hand guns were made illegal (wrongly IMO) and that the police perceive that the humane despatch arguement is being used in an attempt to flout the law.

The problem with this perception is that it can result in a negative view of shooters in general from the public and powers that be if they can ever prove the perception to be correct. That is the real danger

I do not believe that the number of deer that you may require a despatch pistol for should be relevant.To me what is relevant is that you operate under conditions that may require a despatch pistol. In applying the risk analysis I am of the opinion that as well as being a more convenient way of carrying a firearm to be used to despatch a wounded animal the risk of carrying/using a firearm capable of doing the job within a confined area is very much lessened.
I have never owned a handgun of any type therefore the arguement that I would wish to own such a firearm to flout the law is without basis. IMO the Police should be willing to look at all applications before deciding an outcome.
 
Just out of interest SDD do the vets get remuneration,because the stalkers that take it on don't even get petrol money as far as I have been told.

M
 
Afraid I have to agree with the feo, if you want to dispatch a injured deer use a shotgun far better and safer, reading some of the comments some of you obviously have no experience of pistol converted to humane killers or pistols in general or I may suggest injured deer.
To say you would sooner use a pistol round than a 150 grain rifle round says it all.
And yes I do shoot pistol and would not like to try and hit a rta injured thrashing deer with one.
 
My only experience in this matter has been on trips to Poland.
One of the guys shot a boar at night which was lost. The guide fetched his dog and a very old and hard worked side by side shotgun loaded with slugs. Under the barrels was gaffer taped a maglight torch. The boar was soon found and dispatched with out fuss. I personally can't see the need for a pistol and neither could the guides there. My ten penneth would be that if the animal decided to up and run, I'd sooner swing a short side by side with it's own light source fixed. Just my opinion, bound to plenty of others.

Mark
 
A small calibre pistol is easily carried and while we can finish a beast with high power rifle at a much reduced range this does increase the risk of splash from frangible bullets. Having said that, never been in a situation where I needed on but If you're taking out 100+ beasts a season with guests making the shots.... it's gonna happen.
 
just out of interest ,would you say a herd of fallow in a large park to manage, shooting in excess of 60 to 80 head a year would warrent a pistol? ie 2 shot 38 cal
 
Afraid I have to agree with the feo, if you want to dispatch a injured deer use a shotgun far better and safer, reading some of the comments some of you obviously have no experience of pistol converted to humane killers or pistols in general or I may suggest injured deer.
To say you would sooner use a pistol round than a 150 grain rifle round says it all.
And yes I do shoot pistol and would not like to try and hit a rta injured thrashing deer with one.

Yes Taff, I would rather use a pistol to dispatch a wounded deer.

Lets not get hung up on bullet weights because many of us use calibres a lot lighter than something capable of spitting out bullet of that weight.

The issue for me, as I have said before, is having to crawl under thick shut in forestry to recover a Sika that has run in after the shot. Don't suggest that never happens because it simply does! I would love to see you try and follow one with a rifle and then fire a shot with it in these conditions. Please tell me how many deer you have seen thrashing about when lying up wounded? And please tell me how confident you are in shooting something from under 12' away and knowing for certain there is not a big lump of stone under the animal waiting to bounce a piece of rock or worse a bit of bullet back at you after your big 150grn bullet exits the other side!

I stalk with a friend who owned before the ban, pistols/revolvers in .22/.38/.357/9mm/.45 and he agrees that there is absolutely a place for a pistol in deer stalking.

The ground we stalk our deer on is very different to that in your neck of the woods. Feel free to come up any time and show me how it is done with a rifle though...

Now I appear from your suggestion to have to carry a shotgun as well as a rifle when taking out a guest. :confused:
 
this is wot I like about threads like this one,
it is all about use
a pistol is just another tool for the job
the job is about dispatching humanely, how you go about is with a method and tool that works for you consistently
a pistol firing a 158g is going to do more good than a .410 at 35 yards
a rifle with a scope is often less effective on a moving target than an open sighted rifle is especially in the dark when waving a light about at the same time
personally if I could I would use a semi-auto shotgun with both slugs and spsg's as a tool & ammo of choice
unfortunately my FLD do not believe in either as per use for humane despatch and nor do some of the leading authorities that my FLD listen to in such matters
some one mentioned that a rifle is better than a pistol
but so is a ball pein hammer better than a sledgehammer in the right circumstances
I hav followed enough deer now to realise that there are times I wished I had carried a pistol instead of trying to look down the side of the barrel when serving the coup de grace and yes a shotgun would of been marvelous in that situ but not if I had to carry it for 3 hours previously along with the rifle whilst pushing through thick undergrowth trying to hold the leash at the same time
 
Stone have a word with your flo shot guns are used by a lot of knacker firms for humane dispatch on pigs and cows that are close by but don,t stand still the usual choose of shot is bb or alpha max, if you have even thought about shooting a deer at 35yds with a 410 my heart goes out to you, and you recon you could hit a deer in the kill zone with a pistol at that range welcome to the Olympics your a medal winner
Jamross come and crawl through some of our acres of dense rhody where you can,t see a couple of feet in front of you, if a deer allows you to get within 12 inches it ain't going far. Let's talk about pistol calibres .22 illegal for humane dispatch of deer, I had this proven to me in court, 38/357 both rifle /pistol rounds as is 9mm
How many deer have I seen thrashing about wounded after being hit by me or some of my clients, not many, myself and clients are either better shots or you and yours just have a lot of bad luck.
Have you ever seen a pistol round come back up a 25mtr range after going through a plywood target two safety mats hitting a steel plate I have.
Actually I believe there is a place for pistols in the stalking world I would use one for hunting in general if legal, it takes far more skill as a shooter and stalker to kill with a pistol.
 
Abbatoirs use whatever tool is right for the job, including pistols, if you can't see a couple of feet in front of you you're not going to be shooting no matter what gun you've got in your hand as you obviously can't see what's behind it.

Taff, why is a .22 pistol illegal for humane dispatch? I find it difficult to believe as they are granted for that purpose and as long as you haven't injured the deer yourself by an illegal act you can use anything to hand to end it's suffering, regardless of whether it is usually deer legal or not.
 
Jamross come and crawl through some of our acres of dense rhody where you can,t see a couple of feet in front of you, if a deer allows you to get within 12 inches it ain't going far. Let's talk about pistol calibres .22 illegal for humane dispatch of deer, I had this proven to me in court, 38/357 both rifle /pistol rounds as is 9mm
How many deer have I seen thrashing about wounded after being hit by me or some of my clients, not many, myself and clients are either better shots or you and yours just have a lot of bad luck.
Have you ever seen a pistol round come back up a 25mtr range after going through a plywood target two safety mats hitting a steel plate I have.
Actually I believe there is a place for pistols in the stalking world I would use one for hunting in general if legal, it takes far more skill as a shooter and stalker to kill with a pistol.

Taff, you just don't get it, do you?

First of all, the calibre is not the issue, it is the velocity. A pistol is pushing it out at half that of a rifle. Hence the likelihood of it stopping in a deer if you choose the angle and bullet correctly.

Secondly, if you want to think we are all crap shots in Scotland fine. But, as had been said before, if you never wound a deer you are either a liar or don't shoot many.

And thirdly, what on earth has a range scenario got to do with stalking? Utube has lots of clips showing ricochets coming back up a range and either narrowly missing or in some cases striking the shooter. How about that at 12' away in a wood or in you rhody patch.?

Put it this way, if a deer was standing on a skyline and you knew there was 5miles of open hill behind it with no backstop, would you take the shot? The chances are that nothing would come of it so why not...? So, what is the difference then in firing a high velocity round into a deer from close range, because you have no idea what that bullet will do when it goes zipping out the other side but you are happy to take that chance anyway and hope it misses a lump of stone!

I have put down animals over the years with a .22RF and knew that in the front of the skull that bullet was going nowhere except down the neck.

A pistol is a far more capable and safer tool under the above described circumstances than a rifle IMO.

And you have not commented on the idea of carrying a shotgun with the rifle as well I see...
 
Stone have a word with your flo shot guns are used by a lot of knacker firms for humane dispatch on pigs and cows that are close by but don,t stand still the usual choose of shot is bb or alpha max, if you have even thought about shooting a deer at 35yds with a 410 my heart goes out to you, and you recon you could hit a deer in the kill zone with a pistol at that range welcome to the Olympics your a medal winner
Jamross come and crawl through some of our acres of dense rhody where you can,t see a couple of feet in front of you, if a deer allows you to get within 12 inches it ain't going far. Let's talk about pistol calibres .22 illegal for humane dispatch of deer, I had this proven to me in court, 38/357 both rifle /pistol rounds as is 9mm
How many deer have I seen thrashing about wounded after being hit by me or some of my clients, not many, myself and clients are either better shots or you and yours just have a lot of bad luck.
Have you ever seen a pistol round come back up a 25mtr range after going through a plywood target two safety mats hitting a steel plate I have.
Actually I believe there is a place for pistols in the stalking world I would use one for hunting in general if legal, it takes far more skill as a shooter and stalker to kill with a pistol.
Taff
you do talk some crap I'll give you that
read my post and you will see my FLD don't believe that a shottie is an exceptable tool of choice
plus Alphamax wot is that
Alphamax comes in 6's , so you recommend that for shooting cattle and pigs.... defo braver than I as I would not normally shoot at a fox with them
yes a 35 yard deer is a big target with a 10 inch + kill zone and yes I am capable with a open sighted pistol of hitting that size an area and so is my lad who does not shoot,
but I don't put myself anywhere near the class of my mate Mick as he can shoot, as his medals show that
the problem you get is when a wounded deer is not as an exceptable shoot as you may like for a telling shot with a shottie , so as you get into a better position it gets up and runs
wot do you do as you only hav a .410 or maybe a single barrel 12 at hand and the wounded deer is getting away
wot worries me more is that you talk the talk of some one who is not able to walk the walk
and that is scary as others may listen to you
if you knew what you were talking about then it may help
sorry but you don't cut the mustard
 
Back
Top