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Thread: I got my FAC variation. Question about condition(s)

  1. #1

    Question about condition(s). Please advise!

    I have been holding my FAC for .22lr and .308/7.62 for almost two years now, with the sole use of the rifles for target shooting. At the end of August I applied for a variation, asking for my .308/7.62 to be allowed for deer, as well as a .243 rifle for smaller deer and foxes (plus sound moderators and ammunition for both calibres). This morning my FAC came through the letter box, but it has a condition or two that I think are a bit peculiar. Conditions 6 (the way I understand it, anyway) means that I can only shoot my rifles on live quarry as long as I am accompanied but the guy who runs the syndicate, or I am on his land as a member of the syndicate. But what if i want to buy a day's stalking elsewhere? What if I get some land to shoot elsewhere?

    Similarly, condition 7 means I can only use my .243 on fox, and only on the land run by the syndicate. Does that mean that if I come across a fox and I am with my .308 I cannot shoot it?

    I did expect that I will get a closed ticket, and perhaps a 'mentor clause', but condition 6 is effectively not a mentoring condition (seeing I can shoot on my own as long as I am on the syndicate land) but to have it worded like this is a bit weird, I think. Any advise is most welcome. Many thanks




    What they read is seen on the picture here. Attachment 9163
    Last edited by Psyxologos; 18-09-2011 at 11:05. Reason: I changed the title to reflect that this is a question and I need advice.

  2. #2
    These unofficial law "makers" seem to be proliferating, I have never seen that one @ entry 6 before (novice - closed), & to my non law makers eye, the entry giving "on request"... what that is , is anyones best guess, Dalua on here seems to have a bit of legal background , he may be able to help.
    (The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable.) " If I can help, I will help!." Former S.A.C.S. member!

  3. #3
    Indeed this is a weird one. Especially since condition 6 allows me to shoot on my own, but only on syndicate land and only as long as I am a member. Defies the point of a mentoring condition, really.

  4. #4
    Strange never seen those conditions before, I am not sure but it looks like you can shoot on the syndicate land on your own,
    and on other land if mentored by the named person.


    .243 may be used for fox when out stalking, looks like you can't go specifically for fox so lamping for example is out.

    I think it would be best to get someone with some legal knowledge to look it over.

  5. #5
    To be fair, I am not interested in lamping at the moment, and I got the .243 for roe deer and the odd fox if and when it appears. But yes, my main concern is that it seems as if they believe that I am competent enough to shoot on my own on syndicate land whilst a member of the syndicate, but no person in the world is qualified enough to accompany me on a stalk outside the syndicate land. I am at a loss as to what to think about this one...

  6. #6
    double post
    Last edited by Psyxologos; 18-09-2011 at 10:57.

  7. #7
    Can I also ask whether I need a condition to explicitly state that I can purchase and own expanding ammunition or conditions 6 and 7 that state that the rifles, moderators, and ammunition are to be used for deer and foxes cover this? I cannot see any explicit mention of expanding ammunition anywhere...

  8. #8
    Do the police just make these up as they go along now ?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by finnbear270 View Post
    These unofficial law "makers" seem to be proliferating, I have never seen that one @ entry 6 before (novice - closed), & to my non law makers eye, the entry giving "on request"... what that is , is anyones best guess, Dalua on here seems to have a bit of legal background , he may be able to help.
    I don't actually. I'm afraid my understanding of firearms law is based only on my experiences over the years wrangling with the FLD about one thing or another.

    For what it's worth, then, those conditions do look odd:

    5. no moderators for target shooting

    6. although titled 'closed' seems to me to be in fact open, or at least without territorial restriction. The only conditions seem to be that either you are accompanied by Mr. Syndicate Captain, or you are a member of his syndicate.
    The way I read it is that if either condition is fulfilled, you can take deer wherever you have lawful authority to do so.
    The down side of this seems to be that if you cease to be a member of the syndicate, then you will not even be able to zero your moderated stalking rifles on the range or stalk anywhere at all without your former Captain in attendance!

    7 '...and fox on request'? - does the fox have to make the request verbally or in writing? Seriously, this 'taking fox while deerstalking' is very silly, unless you are only likely to shoot a fox while stalking. And yes, it seems their intention is that you may not shoot a fox with your .308.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scots_stalker View Post
    Do the police just make these up as they go along now ?
    Yes

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyxologos View Post
    Can I also ask whether I need a condition to explicitly state that I can purchase and own expanding ammunition or conditions 6 and 7 that state that the rifles, moderators, and ammunition are to be used for deer and foxes cover this? I cannot see any explicit mention of expanding ammunition anywhere...
    Yes, I think you certainly need the standard S5 ammuntion condition, which starts 'The certificate holder may possess, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition...' and then lists as a,b,c & d the purposes for which you may lawfully use the stuff (assuming your rifles are appropriately 'conditioned').

    I feel I ought to re-emphasise that I have no legal training at all, and my interpretation of FAC conditions is based solely on what they say; which I believe is how a court would interpret them if one could ever actually be bothered. De minimis non curat lex, innit?

    Hence my view that the 'Deer Novice closed' condition actually has no territorial restrictions on it at all. It simply doesn't. There aren't any that I can see, at least.
    Just as conditon 5 allows to to target-shoot only while a member of the Club, so 6 allows you to deer-shoot only while a member of the syndicate (or while with the Captain).

    Condition 5 doesn't say 'only on the Club's range' (i.e. as long as you're a member of the club, you can shoot on any approved range), just as condition 6 doesn't say 'only on the Syndicate's ground' which to me suggests that as long as you're in the Syndicate, you can shoot deer where you have lawful authority to do so.

    Other opinions on this would be most welcome!
    Last edited by Dalua; 18-09-2011 at 15:59.

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