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Thread: Unlawful Access

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member tartinjock's Avatar
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    Unlawful Access

    I had this question put to me and was unable to answer, hopefully Swampy might know the correct one, but just to make people aware of a possible problem.


    You and one other (Not an FAC Holder) go stalking, you have your 2 rifles in HIS car (Hatchback), your friend was using your 2nd rifle, (Estate rifle clause). Anyway, he stops at a shop and you go in, your friend now has access to both of your rifles and ammunition, bolts are in a bag in the car and not fitted but still accessable. Police come along and ask to look in the car.

    Oppppsss.

    Where would he stand?

    TJ

  2. #2
    in front of the beak, next to you

    probably ok if in sight and earshot.

  3. #3
    Iwould imagine you would both be in the preverbal doo doo !!!

    He would be classed as in possession of a firearm and ammunition that he is not supposed to have surely. Hypothetically that is

    Ads

  4. #4
    Not a problem if he said he was a gun bearer for the FAC holder.

    Best rgds

    Tahr

  5. #5
    I read that to count as being under your supervison someone needs to be within sight and earshot.

    If you could see and hear him from the shop and vice versa you'd be OK.

    You could say they were locked away safely - but as you wouldn't have bolt and ammo with you (condition of leaving guns unattended) that wouldn't wash, the supervision clause would be a better way to go.

    A million people must stop for fuel on their way to shoot and leave guns and friends in the car.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nix Niveus
    I read that to count as being under your supervison someone needs to be within sight and earshot.

    If you could see and hear him from the shop and vice versa you'd be OK.

    You could say they were locked away safely - but as you wouldn't have bolt and ammo with you (condition of leaving guns unattended) that wouldn't wash, the supervision clause would be a better way to go.

    A million people must stop for fuel on their way to shoot and leave guns and friends in the car.
    Supervision usually refers or can be implied when the firearm in question is in use.

    Unless the firearms were secured in a gunsafe in the vehicle and bolted to the chassis or secured with a suitable wire type device that is secured to the chassis or subframe then the firearms are not securely locked away.

    There is no legal requirement from the firearms act I have read that states you must have the bolt and ammunition about your person if you leave the vehicle unattended when travelling or as a condition on a FAC. It is however common sense to keep ammunition seperate from the firearm e.g. under the seat if the firearms are in the boot or vice versa. Likewise it is common sense to carry the bolt or hide it in another part of the vehicle. To carry a firearm with the bolt in can render the firearm to the authorities as being loaded and hence an offence. Bill Harriman wrote an article on it if I recall some years ago now.

  7. #7

  8. #8
    Davie
    Guest
    always send your guest in and make sure he pays problem will then never arise

  9. #9
    Playing "devil's advocate" I would suggest to take advantage of the "Estate Rifle Rule" one has to be under the control of the FAC holder. It would be my understanding of this to mean sufficiently close to physically intervene if necessary and not just to be within sight and earshot. I take this view from an interpretation given in another guidance document not relating to firearms, but think that possibly the beak may also take the same view. Unfortunately this is probably a matter that could only realy be decided by the courts.
    If we go back to the original question and the two rifles in the hatchback, was it the intention that the FAC holder would use one rifle and the guest the other? You could hardly control the actions of a non-FAC holder, if you were busy looking through the scope of your own rifle some distance away!
    We all have to demonstrate due dilligence with regard to firearms laws and security. The safest solution as I see it is to make some kind of security arrangement in your vehicle such as a cabinet or security cable, remove the bolt if possible and keep it on your person and secure any spare ammo elsewhere. Merely "hiding" it under the seat won't wash with the man in a wig. Yes some of these things aren't written directly into the firearms act, but I am fairly sure that the prosecution will produce the various guidance documents in court to make his case.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by 8x57
    Merely "hiding" it under the seat won't wash with the man in a wig. Yes some of these things aren't written directly into the firearms act, but I am fairly sure that the prosecution will produce the various guidance documents in court to make his case.
    The Firearms Act does not mention a particular standard of security when travelling as it is common sense not to do so. The legislators acknowledge that most, if not all individuals must transport their firearms in vehicles for the simple reason [and fact] that we do not have our available land on which to practice our sport at the end of the gate from our house.

    There is case law on this topic, mostly from vehicle theft with firearms/shotguns in the vehicle and CC revoking tickets and having to reinstate them on appeal.

    Taking reasonable steps [given a vehicle is a small enclosed environment] such as "hiding" compnents or ammunition in various parts of the vehicle is acceptable in law and does satisfy the man in the wig.

    Otherwise we would all have to either, surrender our firearms/shotguns because it would be illegal to transport them or the law would make provision for us to be required to fit gunsafes etc to our vehicles which it currently does not.


    The Home Office Guide to Firearms Law is exactly what it says on the cover, guidance. It is not on the statue books and so is not law.

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