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Thread: "closed certificate"

  1. #1

    "closed certificate"

    Hello all,not sure if this is the correct forum page or indeed if the subject has been covered before,so apologies if i have got it wrong....

    I have a closed certificate condition for my .308 stalking rifle(which i have had a few months) although all of my other weapons(20 years plus experience) are open conditioned.

    I have recentlly passed DSC1,after which they removed my mentoring condition.

    I am currently purchasing stalks here and there and some of the ground has been cleared and others havent so i have to juggle between using my own rifle and estate rifles as necessary. I have to lay down my rifle and use an unfamiliar estate rifle,is that really what the authority mean to happen?? I obviously still assess the shot myself and wouldnt rely on my guides judgement although i would take it into consideration...

    I dont understand the thinking behind the condition as i dont believe there is safe or unsafe ground it is the person pulling the trigger that makes the difference not the equipment or the environment.Can anyone explain the theory of such a condition?I understand when i first had firearms,i was conditoned up to my eyes,quite rightly...but now??

    I am considering applying for the condition to be removed as I feel more concerned that i could find myself in breach of a condition due to a technicality more so than an unsafe shot.

    Has anyone had there condition removed,if so haow did they do it and how did it go??

    Thanks

    Martin

  2. #2
    ask them directly, 'what do I need to do to have the condition removed'. Ask in the context that because of your experience it in not required and unfair while being restrictive. You have DSC1 and so this with a supporting letter from and AW type confirming experience is all you should need if they required 'proof'.

  3. #3
    yeah,thats what i thought.I have a visit due from my local FLO for my SGC renewal so will gather some more thoughts and tackle him/her.

    Thanks

  4. #4
    Explain it just as you did your opening post above, with emphasis on the bit about being forced to use an unfamiliar rifle (there are obvious safety issues here) you should have no problem getting it removed.

    Familiarity with a firearm of any kind is the starting point for safe gun handling proceedure. Knowing how to operate the safety seems quite trivial but in the heat of the moment with an unfamiliar rifle you can find yourself fumbling about. Also installing and removing a magazine is not the same on all rifles, as is bolt removal. Some rifles lock the bolt in place when the safety is 'on' and others don't.
    A lot comes down to confidence too, I know the capabilities of both myself and my rifles, I know when the trigger is going to break.... Using an estate rifle is like pulling the trigger and praying that the person who zero'd it knew his stuff.
    "It's halfway down the hill, directly below that tree next to a rock that looks like a bell-end"

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  5. #5
    yeah,thanks,thats exactly how i see it.....

  6. #6
    It's all complete bo**ocks.

    If you've had lesser centrefires than a .308 for years, a .223 is just as capable of drilling a hole in someone at 1/2 mile as a .308.

    A safe backstop is a safe backstop, and FLA's have no business putting dumb conditioning such as yours on certificates.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by 2130martin View Post

    I have a closed certificate condition for my .308 stalking rifle(which i have had a few months) although all of my other weapons(20 years plus experience) are open conditioned.
    Ask the FEO to justify why they are continuing to place you under restriction despite your previous experience with firearms, (you don't mention which calibres you have been shooting with though?). If they are not willing to remove it then request written details of what criteria you are expected to meet in order for them to remove it.

    If you don't get a reasonable response put your request for removal in writing, along with as much supporting evidence as possible, (copy of DSC1, receipts for bookings, letters of recommendation etc.), to the FLD manager. Don't accept verbals on anything if you think it restricts you - they must justify conditions in writing.

    If all else fails get a shooting org onside - SACS are excellent in dealing with individual firearms matters for members.

  8. #8
    Thanks Orion
    sorry,missed out the calibres,.38/.357,.32,.22 pistols and .22lr.........no centre fire rifles,does that make any difference? i dont see that should make any difference it only makes a louder bang.........safety issues are all the same,anything in the way when you pull the trigger is game over....

    when i enquired about land checks on Arran for the BASC scheme,Strathclyde Police didnt know what i was talking about!!...when i spoke to D&C they said it was ok.....

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by 2130martin View Post
    i dont see that should make any difference it only makes a louder bang.........safety issues are all the same,anything in the way when you pull the trigger is game over....
    well there's also the small issue of what's behind it as well! (I know you'll be covering that as well though).

    when i enquired about land checks on Arran for the BASC scheme,Strathclyde Police didnt know what i was talking about!!...when i spoke to D&C they said it was ok.....
    In that case I'd suggest it's game, set and match in your favour. If they've already made a precedent by agreeing to you shooting over land that hadn't been cleared for the calibre by a CC, (Arran), surely a breach of your condition, then how can they possibly justify in keeping it in place?

  10. #10
    From HO guidlines:
    Section 10.33
    Possible conditions which may be applied are listed at Appendix 3 as a guide to firearms licensing officers.
    Exceptionally, chief officers of police may impose other conditions appropriate to individual circumstances.

    Section 10.35
    Chief officers of police are empowered to impose conditions if they think that the circumstances of the individual case mean that the condition is necessary to ensure the effective operation of the firearms controls and to minimise the risk to public safety.

    It is worth politely asking them what the Exceptional Circumstances are that require the condition, and which public safety issues they are addressing by imposing these conditions on your certificate.

    The example condition given in "appendix 3" as quoted above is:
    "The *calibre RIFLE/COMBINATION/ SMOOTH-BORE GUN/SOUND MODERATOR and ammunition shall be used for shooting vermin and ground game/fox/deer (delete as appropriate) and for zeroing on ranges, or land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot."

    Just as some quick background for you - helps if you quote the letter of the HO guidelines as it helps to demonstrate that you know what you are talking about

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