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Thread: The differences in training and tracking with a deerdog as compared to an BMH/HS.

  1. #1

    The differences in training and tracking with a deerdog as compared to an BMH/HS.

    Stone suggested in the thread "blood!!!" that may be there is merit in a specific discussion of the differences in training and tracking of a deerdog and a BMH/BS.

    Could I have people's opinion on that?

    I propose a format that somebody, Stone? explains how he goes about if for a deerhound whilst I will take the side of the BMH/BS but am 100% open for suggestions. If somebody else wants to do the BMH/HS bit he is welcome!

    Stone, what do you think?

  2. #2
    should that not be differences between deer dog and tracking dog as i would lump teckels into the pure tracking pot as well as bmh/hs

  3. #3
    But then I have a BMH that to me is a deer dog that tracks, as most deer dogs do. What about the difference between cold tracking dogs and "hot" tracking dogs but then mine will track hot or cold. Still go back to the essential that the dog is willing and keen to track. What it tracks is up to the trainer. I would reckon that a HS or BMH could take to human tracking.

  4. #4
    The point in all of this is dogs will track what they are trained to track
    Any dog will find humans,deer,cows,pigs or sheep if it's trained to do it
    Peoples training methods obviously differ,mine work fine for me,I like to keep it as real as possible,others don't,no probs
    My own dogs will follow hot scent(under 4 hours),cold scent(over 4 hours),blood and no blood with just hooves being used,the way you get there is up to you,my dogs are labs,a BMH or HS would/should do this in there sleep as well,if they are given the proper training
    If the dogs aren't worked too much they should be kept up to speed by training,ie tracks,using deer or boar IMO
    UK deer dogs will rarely be used on older trails but it doesn't mean with the correct training they can't do it
    BMH/HS are pure tracking dogs,some may not take kindly to being at heel and indicating deer in front,they should be used on older tracks well after the shot however I think they would equally work hotter scent as well,at heel some will prefer their noses on the deck all the time,this is what they are for,hoovering up scent,they do it very well as well
    Last edited by Wolverine; 01-01-2012 at 18:42.

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  5. #5
    Talking about the training for pure tracking , there is no need on blood to train a dog , the best way to start your training is to follow a long and hard way for youself and your dog . It will take time and during your training more time to see the first results after lots of km trail you have put down on the ground. By bilding up i think all the obeservation you have to make during your ( in the beginning easy trails ) and later on those trails how are nearly real once. The easy way to start is very simple , take a little skin , and pull it over a 150m wait 1 hour , do not forget to mark your trail , dog on the lean and go . Iff you can do this ,till you result is , skin over 1.5km and wait 36 hours , than it is the time to go over on the hooves . Do the same as you did with the skin , when you arrrive at the same level , than you can put some drops off blood into your trail .Blood is blood nothing in it , pure , no water , no salt , nothing . When you shoot an animal there is blood coming out , no salt.
    Those are the rules writtin down by those how did this more than a hundred years ago , they obsevrd there dogs , wrote it down for us so we can see that this is a job what is never can be done on a modern way .

  6. #6
    George
    I now hav a lab
    who started life at 8 weeks on short trails with freshly layed blood and a skin or hoof at the end of it for reward ( maybe a tit-bit aswell)
    from there I progressed to an hour old trail of 50m's then 100m's onto 400m's
    by 6 months of age she was upto 24hr old over 600m's
    by 11 months old it was 36 hr old over 600m's
    at 10 months of age she was walking to heel off a lead stalkng by my side in the field and had her first find on a dead fallow at 11 months
    by 12 months was allowed to find her first live wounded beast, a roe buck that stood to her presence untill it was finished off
    from there we spent 2 years on the job purely just on deer ,
    some good , some bad and a couple of losses
    as a dog that was soley taught to track on a leash , she found it hard to work off one,
    as her initial training dictated she worked on a leash
    at 3 years of age she had her first season picking up on winged game and wildfowl, never been taught to retrieve she took to it with over 100 retrieves in just 5 days out
    now at the age of 4 and a bit
    she is more capable of following a 24 hr old trail over 1000+ yards on or off a leash, but works best on a leash as she is more focussed
    she gets bored with 36 hr old trails after about 600 yards and won't entertain a 40 hr old trail anymore, but I don't blame her and never pushed it as I'm sure she has worked out reality to just playing at it
    she is more than capable of working a track where other dogs hav already worked on and failed
    and can work on hoof scent alone or air scent
    I used to try and chest shoot all my deer so they would run so she had a chance to track, warm granted but experience needed, but she is a little small and lacks that bit of aggression for bringing wounded deer down & holding them, but that was my choice of lines

    best track to date is a head shot munty that went wrong
    we got there 24 hours later on a hot summer day , blood trail for about 40 yards with good blood
    then spots for about 20-30 yards which faded to nothing after 50 yards
    this was not a straight line but semi zig zagged in the undergrowth,
    after that no visible sign
    for about 200 yards she kept a line whilst still on a leash ,deer found still alive in thick undergrowth
    best retrieves to date
    A blind retrieve on a goose from across the other bank of 100ft drain as tide was coming in, she had never swam in a tidal river or picked a bird that big untill that point
    Another was a marked bird
    a 100 yards aproxx duck off a flooded field that was being pushed away from us by the breeze

    I don't call my dog a god or treat here as one of the elite , as there are better dogs out there
    I've seen them and watch them work, even they still fail to find
    so we are all in the same boat
    I don't even class her as a dedicated deer dog ,
    just a dog trained on deer , then on game
    I need a dog that can do and is capable of doing it
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    that can follow a cold blood trail the next day and even the day after if needed
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    that can follow a warm scent
    I hav a multi purpose dog
    that can track live deer
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    that can track dead deer
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    that can hunt game off both land and water
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    that can pick game either dead or runners off land and water
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    that can be trusted on and off the lead where ever I go and whater ever company I am in
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    that can indicate unshot deer
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    I can be proud of which has come from good field trial lines
    I hav a multi-purpose dog

    and it is a Lab

    out of interest
    what is the end result you are hoping to achieve that is so different from my multi purpose dog , apart from the game side of things
    you feel you need from training a BMH or HS for the field ??

  7. #7
    I think you hav a multi-purpose dog
    I've got 3 of those
    A BMH or HS are dedicated to track,as you know stone
    A dedicated deer dog would very likely lose next to no deer
    Out of a couple of hundred searches in the last few years,I've lost none
    My dogs are more deer orientated than game,do more deer now than ever before
    I still think you hav a multi-purpose dog
    All mine are god like

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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by stone View Post
    George
    I now hav a lab
    who started life at 8 weeks on short trails with freshly layed blood and a skin or hoof at the end of it for reward ( maybe a tit-bit aswell)
    from there I progressed to an hour old trail of 50m's then 100m's onto 400m's
    by 6 months of age she was upto 24hr old over 600m's
    by 11 months old it was 36 hr old over 600m's
    at 10 months of age she was walking to heel off a lead stalkng by my side in the field and had her first find on a dead fallow at 11 months
    by 12 months was allowed to find her first live wounded beast, a roe buck that stood to her presence untill it was finished off
    from there we spent 2 years on the job purely just on deer ,
    some good , some bad and a couple of losses
    as a dog that was soley taught to track on a leash , she found it hard to work off one,
    as her initial training dictated she worked on a leash
    at 3 years of age she had her first season picking up on winged game and wildfowl, never been taught to retrieve she took to it with over 100 retrieves in just 5 days out
    now at the age of 4 and a bit
    she is more capable of following a 24 hr old trail over 1000+ yards on or off a leash, but works best on a leash as she is more focussed
    she gets bored with 36 hr old trails after about 600 yards and won't entertain a 40 hr old trail anymore, but I don't blame her and never pushed it as I'm sure she has worked out reality to just playing at it
    she is more than capable of working a track where other dogs hav already worked on and failed
    and can work on hoof scent alone or air scent
    I used to try and chest shoot all my deer so they would run so she had a chance to track, warm granted but experience needed, but she is a little small and lacks that bit of aggression for bringing wounded deer down & holding them, but that was my choice of lines

    best track to date is a head shot munty that went wrong
    we got there 24 hours later on a hot summer day , blood trail for about 40 yards with good blood
    then spots for about 20-30 yards which faded to nothing after 50 yards
    this was not a straight line but semi zig zagged in the undergrowth,
    after that no visible sign
    for about 200 yards she kept a line whilst still on a leash ,deer found still alive in thick undergrowth
    best retrieves to date
    A blind retrieve on a goose from across the other bank of 100ft drain as tide was coming in, she had never swam in a tidal river or picked a bird that big untill that point
    Another was a marked bird
    a 100 yards aproxx duck off a flooded field that was being pushed away from us by the breeze

    I don't call my dog a god or treat here as one of the elite , as there are better dogs out there
    I've seen them and watch them work, even they still fail to find
    so we are all in the same boat
    I don't even class her as a dedicated deer dog ,
    just a dog trained on deer , then on game
    I need a dog that can do and is capable of doing it
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    that can follow a cold blood trail the next day and even the day after if needed
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    that can follow a warm scent
    I hav a multi purpose dog
    that can track live deer
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    that can track dead deer
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    that can hunt game off both land and water
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    that can pick game either dead or runners off land and water
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    that can be trusted on and off the lead where ever I go and whater ever company I am in
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    that can indicate unshot deer
    I hav a multi-purpose dog
    I can be proud of which has come from good field trial lines
    I hav a multi-purpose dog

    and it is a Lab

    out of interest
    what is the end result you are hoping to achieve that is so different from my multi purpose dog , apart from the game side of things
    you feel you need from training a BMH or HS for the field ??
    Now that is a long post.

    As we are going to meet soon. It is for you to decide the date and place, I suggest we talk it over then.

    A very short reaction would be HS and such are not superior bur specifically bred to do a specific job. You can train, as you have done a labrador to do them as well if you know what you are doing.

    As the head of the police dog training school told me once: "I can teach a camel to retrieve but is it worth the effort".

    Hope to hear from you soon with a date.

    Regards

  9. #9
    Great post Fetch it RIA

    TEN MONTHS AND SHE IS A ZOOMER

    But she found the deer and it was one of two maybe why the confusion at first. She can be shouted back on a sent or worked on a line/ Great dogs you got to love there special nature.

    BENTON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Last edited by 6pointer; 04-01-2012 at 21:30.

  10. #10
    TBH
    Baron
    The training I put in would be no more than I would put into any other dog that I intentended to use for that choice of work
    The fact my little lab took to it and relished the work made it a lot more pleasurable and a darn site easier to do
    Once the shooting season has finished I will be in touch with several dates and suggestions for you to mull over
    I think you may find it interesting to say the least
    As for if it was worth the effort .... O Yes
    As training any dog to do what you want it to achieve and the dog actually doing it is worth it

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