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Thread: Comment on a Snipers Hide, thoughts please?

  1. #1

    Comment on a Snipers Hide, thoughts please?

    I have just bought a neck sizing die in .223 and would like to save my Lapua brass but not working it as much. I then saw this post on an American site called Snipers Hide. Please share your thoughts?

    First let me say that I Full Length (FL) resize ALL my brass EVERY time. I have never understood the concept of neck sizing brass. Nor do I agree with the idea that I am working the brass too much by full length sizing each time.

    Here is why: If you only size the neck of the brass, the body will continue to grow as the brass springs back less and less after each firing. It makes sense to me that if the outside is growing, the inside (case volume) must be getting larger also. That means that the volume is increasing, which ultimately means you are getting less pressure each time you reload. Your velocities will get lower (or at least will be changing) after each reload. This does not lend itself to consistency in my eyes. Add to that is given that you will have to run your case through a FL die (or body die) after about 5 reloads anyway because it wonít fit into your chamber anymore. Full Length sizing it at that time means that you just squoze it back down to the minimum dimension all in one shot and have really worked the brass. More Consistent? Easier on brass? I canít see it.

    Regards

    Carl





  2. #2
    Hmm, well how can it keep growing, once a case grows to fit the chamber, it cant get any bigger.. apart from brass flowing which is sorted but removing do-nuts and trimming the case length. it is then fire formed to your chamber which will mean its a better fit next time if you neck size it. Ive heard of a lot of people who F/L size as a good die set up and used properly produces a round which is as good as any neck sized, however you are work hardening the brass.. The bit about not fitting into your chamber isnt true as ive got brass which has been reloaded over 5x and its fine in the rifle.

    I neck size using a bushing die which i believe helps run out and also minimises work hardening, also i anneal after each firing. My rounds give me the same velocity every time since they were new.

    Everyone to their own and there seems to be no exact science but i would question the above statement..

  3. #3
    What the fisherman said...

    When the case is fire formed to your rifle's chamber, it doesn't grow much after each firing. FL resizing however, will definitely make your cases grow as they are size back down, and the only place for the metal to move is up through the case mouth.

    Now granted, if you only neck size, you will reach a point where you will need to bump the shoulder back a tad after a few (quite possibly more than a few, depending on the cartridge and load) firings. But this would cause much less case length growth than FL sizing every time.

    JMTCW...

  4. #4
    Yep i neck size all of my brass but before i size it at all i use a stoney point head space gauge.
    What i do is:
    Using a caliper and stoney point headspace gauge i measure a full length sized case and note down the length.
    I then measure a once fired case (fired in the gun you are using) that will give you the chamber length of your gun.

    You can then see from the 2 lengths how much the case is lengthened from the full length size to your chamber size.
    You can then adjust your full length sizing die to "bump" back the shoulder of the case to be 10,000" shorter than the once fired case - if required.

    I do this so that every round reloaded has the same case dimensions and is a custom fit for my guns chamber
    It stops you "over working" the brass and gives the brass cases a longer life!

    ATB
    Daz

    ps: 5 shot group @ 100yds with the aics .223 and nosler reloads
    Last edited by DazT; 05-01-2012 at 00:33.

  5. #5
    now this is a thread I will be watching.
    I have been trying to get a coherent answer to the question "why FL size if there is no chambering problem"?

    I use a lee loader, be definition neck size only. in 270 I have not come across any growth/lengthening in rounds that are probably 5 or 6x fired, I rarely even have to trim anything.
    In 243 I havent had it long enough but read of case lengthening issues (which I believe the AI version is meant to improve).
    I have enough brass to hopefully get around any immediate shoulder bumping issues (or I will just have to pony up in future and buy a press!)

    I too found an article which amused me.
    It was for 303 loaders and suggested that they use a lee loader for the resizing stage of their reloads to completely remove the overworking of the brass with the "pull through" sizer.

    http://www.303british.com/id31.html

    f
    or those of you that dont know, the loader neck sizes from the outside which depending on neck thickness could give vagaries in tension but it does not appear to work the brass as much.

    To me a perfectly fireformed case seems to be the logical best shape and size

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfisherman View Post
    Hmm, well how can it keep growing, once a case grows to fit the chamber, it cant get any bigger.. apart from brass flowing which is sorted but removing do-nuts and trimming the case length. it is then fire formed to your chamber which will mean its a better fit next time if you neck size it. Ive heard of a lot of people who F/L size as a good die set up and used properly produces a round which is as good as any neck sized, however you are work hardening the brass.. The bit about not fitting into your chamber isnt true as ive got brass which has been reloaded over 5x and its fine in the rifle.

    I neck size using a bushing die which i believe helps run out and also minimises work hardening, also i anneal after each firing. My rounds give me the same velocity every time since they were new.

    Everyone to their own and there seems to be no exact science but i would question the above statement..
    Good grief, how much time do you have!

    In my opinion, if the brass is fire formed in your rifle and there are no chambering issues then neck size.
    If you are running a calibre, rifle or brass that is finnicky about neck tension then by all means use a bushing die but I've found they offer little value in the mainstream .223 and .308's where brass thickness and factory chamberings are all pretty samesy.

    My custom .260 required bushings as the std neck dies where over or under sizing due to significant variance in the thickness of nosler vs. lapua brass.

    I've found that smaller calibres are more prone to brass flow, particularly when the loads start getting warm. .223 seems to need trimming on each firing whereas .308 hardly ever.
    With the .223 I've found that it is necessary to fl size after about 5 firings, particularly on warm loads. I could just use a body die to bump the shoulder but I couldn't be arsed buying another die that only get's used once in a 1000 rounds.

    P.S. there is a school of thought that says you ought to FL size on hunting rounds, always. I can understand this in the instance of dangerous game where feed makes the difference between life or death.
    Last edited by Milligan; 07-01-2012 at 16:12.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Milligan View Post
    P.S. there is a school of thought that says you ought to FL size on hunting rounds, always. I can understand this in the instance of dangerous game where feed makes the difference between life or death.
    So that was a quote from Lee Reloading 2nd ed. but it wasnt explained in the book.
    I can see why getting another 416 in the chamber with Black Death bearing down on you might be important but I cant tell the difference chambering fireformed rounds to factory rounds.

  8. #8
    i full length size every time, makes my rounds more consistant from 1 round to the next ,problem with neck sizing is if the brass has any resistance on the shoulder of the case after a 2-3 firings the shots go high or out of the group
    yes it works the brass more but i anneal so have brass over 17 reloads and shoots great

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Russian Sniper View Post
    Yep i neck size all of my brass but before i size it at all i use a stoney point head space gauge.
    What i do is:
    Using a caliper and stoney point headspace gauge i measure a full length sized case and note down the length.
    I then measure a once fired case (fired in the gun you are using) that will give you the chamber length of your gun.

    You can then see from the 2 lengths how much the case is lengthened from the full length size to your chamber size.
    You can then adjust your full length sizing die to "bump" back the shoulder of the case to be 10,000" shorter than the once fired case - if required.

    I do this so that every round reloaded has the same case dimensions and is a custom fit for my guns chamber
    It stops you "over working" the brass and gives the brass cases a longer life!

    ATB
    Daz

    ps: 5 shot group @ 100yds with the aics .223 and nosler reloads

    Hi i notice you mention the headspace but an FL die dose not bump headspace or some dont ie redding /foster & i aint looked into the others you need to buy a die that dose like a redding body/bump or a foster neck bush/bump die to do this process just a heads up for you.

  10. #10
    You can adjust the f/l die to "bump" the should back as far as you need

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