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Thread: "Calibre" or "Cartridge"?

  1. #1

    Unhappy "Calibre" or "Cartridge"?

    I have just had an interesting chat with my FEO about the term "calibre".

    The police/Home Office are following advice from BASC apparantly in their usage of this term, in which they want you to use a specific cartridge designation ie. .222 instead of .22 centrefire when asking for a variation. What my FEO kept calling a "calibre"! I had to apply for a .222 calibre rifle.

    Now the Dictionary definition of "Calibre" is that it is "The diameter of any circular section, especially the interior diameter of a tube or hollow cylinder". It is generally accepted in relation to riflesmithing that the term "calibre" is the bore of a rifle barrel prior to adding the rifling. Thus any of the .22 centrefires are 0.224" calibre.

    It is a shame the body supposedly representing shooters cannot get their terminology correct, especially when advising our regulatory bodies.

    It mattered not that I wanted a .22 centrefire variation, I had to specify a particular chambering. The fact that 0.224" bullet will fit down a 22-250, a .222 or a .233 et al, matters not at all to them.

    I find this infuriating, I spend ages trying to learn the correct nomenclature of my sport, and yet one of the leading shooting bodies helping to advise our police cannot get this right. What hope is there for us?

    I will admit that West Mercia Firearms Dept are improving rapidly under new management, seemingly they have listened to the FEO's. About time too. I have always found the FEO's to be very helpful and knowledgable people.

    Confusedly, Simon

    Edit, but he did allow me to have a slot for 6.5/.260". Go figure?
    Last edited by flytie; 11-01-2012 at 11:58. Reason: Correcting my stupidity

  2. #2
    I have always just put the calibre of the the rifle i want eg .30/.22centerfire etc on my variation as that is what they ask for on the 101 form and that is what i got back on my Fac new slots.

    bob
    "a man does good business when he rids himself of a turd"

  3. #3
    It is calibre that is requested on any fac form I've had, all we can do is to politely educate the FEO's

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by rem284 View Post
    It is calibre that is requested on any fac form I've had, all we can do is to politely educate the FEO's
    I tried, honestly I did. While providing tea and buscuits, comfy chair etc. I asked why they used the term for bore diameter when the meant chambering and not accept the dictionary definition of calibre. I even read him the definition. I also showed him my reloading books with 0.224" diameter bullets being used in 22-250's, .223's and .222's. This I was told was wrong! They used the Home Office description which had been arrived at with the advice of BASC. "So there it is, get used to it", I was told. What they want is the description you would get quote, "if you had to ask for ammunition for your rifle in a shop". No good telling them that you reload and you will be buying 0.224" bullets.

    I suppose in the near future we will have to accept "Heads" instead of bullets, and yet another term will be misused. Then headspace will obviously become the gap between the bullet and the lead-in, an engineering term, (commonly and erroniously called the leade) to the barrel from the chamber. What will happen to the original "head-spacing" of the head of the case I do not know. And I suppose the round will become known as a "bullet" because that is what they call it on the television and in the appalling films we are subjected to.

    God, I feel like a grumpy git at the moment, but it does make me cross that BASC countanance this behaviour.

    Simon
    Last edited by flytie; 11-01-2012 at 11:56. Reason: Tamus made me!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by flytie View Post
    I tried, honestly I did. While providing tea and buscuits, comfy chair etc. I asked why they used the term for bore diameter when the meant chambering and not accept the dictionary definition of calibre. I even read him the definition. I also showed him my reloading books with 0.242" diameter bullets being used in 22-250's, .223's and .222's. This I was told was wrong! They used the Home Office description which had been arrived at with the advice of BASC. "So there it is, get used to it", I was told. What they want is the description you would get quote, "if you had to ask for ammunition for your rifle in a shop". No good telling them that you reload and you will be buying 0.242" bullets.

    I suppose in the near future we will have to accept "Heads" instead of bullets, and yet another term will be misused. Then headspace will obviously become the gap between the bullet and the lead-in, an engineering term, (commonly and erroniously called the leade) to the barrel from the chamber. What will happen to the original "head-spacing" of the head of the case I do not know. And I suppose the round will become known as a "bullet" because that is what they call it on the television and in the appalling films we are subjected to.

    God, I feel like a grumpy git at the moment, but it does make me cross that BASC countanance this behaviour.

    Simon
    Luckily I carry the dyslexia gene, so I know you meant .22 4" and not .2 4 2"

    I long since stopped trying to educate serving agents of HM Constabulary. I reckon their "powers-that-be" know full well... about nearly all the intricacies, but it suits them to give us windmills to tilt at and holes to dig for ourselves. And, by golly, reading many of the posts on SD, I think "they" all too often have exactly the effect "they" appear to intend.

  6. #6
    Tamus you are, as ever, correct! I did mean to type .224" but my venting and grumpiness got the better of me, sorry You understand, I know, how frustrating this can be, but you explain yourself, and type, far better than I ever can, especially when I have steam coming from my ears :P

    Apologetically, Simon

    Edit; I have made corrections to my previous posts as Tamus pointed out how daft I had been in making mistakes. Sorry!
    Last edited by flytie; 11-01-2012 at 12:01. Reason: apologising

  7. #7
    last variation i put in to west mercia they told me to just put 6mm and 7mm rifles....... which makes perfect sense to me.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by flytie View Post
    I have just had an interesting chat with my FEO about the term "calibre".

    The police/Home Office are following advice from BASC apparantly in their usage of this term, in which they want you to use a specific cartridge designation ie. .222 instead of .22 centrefire when asking for a variation. What my FEO kept calling a "calibre"! I had to apply for a .222 calibre rifle.

    Now the Dictionary definition of "Calibre" is that it is "The diameter of any circular section, especially the interior diameter of a tube or hollow cylinder". It is generally accepted in relation to riflesmithing that the term "calibre" is the bore of a rifle barrel prior to adding the rifling. Thus any of the .22 centrefires are 0.224" calibre.

    It is a shame the body supposedly representing shooters cannot get their terminology correct, especially when advising our regulatory bodies.

    It mattered not that I wanted a .22 centrefire variation, I had to specify a particular chambering. The fact that 0.224" bullet will fit down a 22-250, a .222 or a .233 et al, matters not at all to them.

    I find this infuriating, I spend ages trying to learn the correct nomenclature of my sport, and yet one of the leading shooting bodies helping to advise our police cannot get this right. What hope is there for us?

    I will admit that West Mercia Firearms Dept are improving rapidly under new management, seemingly they have listened to the FEO's. About time too. I have always found the FEO's to be very helpful and knowledgable people.

    Confusedly, Simon

    Edit, but he did allow me to have a slot for 6.5/.260". Go figure?
    Whilst technically you are correct regarding the bore size, I do think you may be splitting the hairs a Tad too fine on this point. Ok a 243 is actually a 6mm head in a brass case, so if you went to buy ammo for that Rifle what would you ask for? 6mm 100 grn or 243 100grn? The lets look at the 22/250 again would you ask for 22/250 50 grn bullets or .224 50grn bullets? I want to buy a 25-06 do I ask for a 25 cal and get a Roberts or a 257 wetherby mag. Not trying to be an Donkey but its a bit of a grey area. I know we are actually asking for the round we intend using when we purchase our rifle and the land we use it on is passed suitable for that particular round. After all a 6mm PPc is just that and a 243 is just that, they just use the same head.


    nutty

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by nuttyspaniel View Post
    Whilst technically you are correct regarding the bore size, I do think you may be splitting the hairs a Tad too fine on this point. Ok a 243 is actually a 6mm head in a brass case, so if you went to buy ammo for that Rifle what would you ask for? 6mm 100 grn or 243 100grn? The lets look at the 22/250 again would you ask for 22/250 50 grn bullets or .224 50grn bullets? I want to buy a 25-06 do I ask for a 25 cal and get a Roberts or a 257 wetherby mag. Not trying to be an Donkey but its a bit of a grey area. I know we are actually asking for the round we intend using when we purchase our rifle and the land we use it on is passed suitable for that particular round. After all a 6mm PPc is just that and a 243 is just that, they just use the same head.


    nutty
    Hi nutty
    Idon't know if they use the same head but they do use the same bullet
    Geordie

  10. #10
    They need to change the wording on our FAC's to "chambering" rather then calibre.

    Ian.

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