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Thread: DSC 1, BASC and the Police

  1. #1

    DSC 1, BASC and the Police

    Although no longer a member BASC still send me their magazine. In Jan/Febs issue I saw an article entitled " Stalking made easy". I thought great, i might pick up some new tip or the magic way. But to my disappointment it was no more than blantent advertising for the DSC1. Now i've got DSC1 and learn't a lot, so i'm not anti DSC. However what really annoyed me was the fact the second paragraph stated "Increasingly police forces are requesting it (DSC1) as a condition of granting an FAC for deer management.............". DSC should be an option, not a requirement. Having read many of the threads on SD my understanding is that the police have no right to request or demand anyone wishing to aquire an FAC for stalking to undergo DSC training as a requirement for granting it. If this statement is correct then why are BASC accepting that the police can require it and even more than that signing up to the police position rather than fighting for stalkers in general and their own stalking members in particular ?

  2. #2
    Why ??

    Well I don't suppose BASC make money from the training course and materials, plus you have to be a member to attend one of their courses !

    I am not anti it either, but let face it, anything to do with shooting and any other leisure activity is big business and about making money !

    Simple really.

    Cheers + ATVB

    Philip
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes ?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by scrun63 View Post
    If this statement is correct then why are BASC accepting that the police can require it and even more than that signing up to the police position rather than fighting for stalkers in general and their own stalking members in particular ?
    Maybe BASC might like to respond - although you might note where they stand with regard to the promotion and administration of DSC and the DI.

  4. #4
    Its true Mike did his DSC level 1 and learnt allot on the course, he has not done much stalking in the past.

    We donít have to tell you guys that the police in several areas are asking for DSC 1 or other conditions, before grant or variation and not always along the line that the HO guidance intended Ė i.e. only apply such conditions when the alternative would be a refusal.

    Yes we agree unreservedly that DSC1 should be an option, not compulsory.

    As you know we and the NGO are working hard on the licensing issue at the moment, not just in terms of fees but also in terms of fair , consistent and efficient application of the firearms act for grants variations and renewals across the UK, something that we donít have at the moment!

    Regards to all
    David

  5. #5
    David,

    I understand what you are saying but it goes no way to allaying the fears of the average person trying to get into stalking, BASC and the NGO may well be involved in the future debate about fees and fairness across the board, but what about the level 1 requirement fiasco. I rather suspect that the requirement of level 1 to be in place before the grant of a FAC was not the work of ACPO but of some high flyer intent on furthering their career, and since it was not challenged robustly has now slipped into accepted use.

    I would hope that the matter of level 1 as a requirement is on the agenda in these discussions
    As you know we and the NGO are working hard on the licensing issue at the moment, not just in terms of fees but also in terms of fair , consistent and efficient application of the firearms act for grants variations and renewals across the UK, something that we don’t have at the moment
    John
    A clever man knows his strengths, a wise man knows his weaknesses

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by JAYB View Post
    David,

    I understand what you are saying but it goes no way to allaying the fears of the average person trying to get into stalking, BASC and the NGO may well be involved in the future debate about fees and fairness across the board, but what about the level 1 requirement fiasco. I rather suspect that the requirement of level 1 to be in place before the grant of a FAC was not the work of ACPO but of some high flyer intent on furthering their career, and since it was not challenged robustly has now slipped into accepted use.

    I would hope that the matter of level 1 as a requirement is on the agenda in these discussions

    John
    My point exactly - tho I wanted someone else to say it rather than me as the poster. Personally I think it's in BASC 's interest that the DSC is ENFORCED by the police as a requirement, hence there's no incentive - except perhaps from their FUNDING members who are the ones who will be mosy effected by BASCs intransience ,

    AND I REITERATE before anyone jumps to conclusions, I thought the DSC 1was excellent and taught me a lot, so i'm NOT anti DSC per sa, just being compelled to do it

    Andrew

  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Personally, I think there should be compulsory training for those wishing to manage deer.

    Independant testing, not by accredited witness's or "mentors" out to line their pockets.

    But a National Deer Stalking Certificate of competance, which one must achieve before obtaining a firearm for the purpose of deer control.


    Run and regulated by a gov agency, long the lines of european hunters tests - strict pass or fail.

    No coaching on the range, no help with questions or safety test, onus on the candidate to get to the required level and show commitment to learn the basics.


    Having knowledge of several incidents (which I will not go into on the forum) involving newly "trained" stalkers to DSC1 level only affirms my view (these incidents involved people both on their own and in the company of mentors).


    I anticipate this view will not be popular,,,,
    Last edited by Ronin; 11-01-2012 at 18:35.

  8. #8
    I rather suspect that the requirement of level 1 to be in place before the grant of a FAC was not the work of ACPO but of some high flyer intent on furthering their career, and since it was not challenged robustly has now slipped into accepted use.
    HHHMMNNnnn!, I think we've been here before!
    (The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable.) " If I can help, I will help!." Former S.A.C.S. member!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Redmist View Post
    Personally, I think there should be compulsory training for those wishing to manage deer.

    Independant testing, not by accredited witness's or "mentors" out to line their pockets.

    But a National Deer Stalking Certificate of competance, which one must achieve before obtaining a firearm for the purpose of deer control.


    Run and regulated by a gov agency, long the lines of european hunters tests - strict pass or fail.

    No coaching on the range, no help with questions or safety test, onus on the candidate to get to the required level and show commitment to learn the basics.


    Having knowledge of several incidents (which I will not go into on the forum) involving newly "trained" stalkers to DSC1 level only affirms my view (these incidents involved people both on their own and in the company of mentors).


    I anticipate this view will not be popular,,,,
    Funny how some, over here, look on foreign qualifications, personally I would have no qualms taking on someone with the Jagdschein or similar from the Scandinavian countries!
    (The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable.) " If I can help, I will help!." Former S.A.C.S. member!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by David BASC View Post
    Its true Mike did his DSC level 1 and learnt allot on the course, he has not done much stalking in the past.

    We don’t have to tell you guys that the police in several areas are asking for DSC 1 or other conditions, before grant or variation and not always along the line that the HO guidance intended – i.e. only apply such conditions when the alternative would be a refusal.

    Yes we agree unreservedly that DSC1 should be an option, not compulsory.

    As you know we and the NGO are working hard on the licensing issue at the moment, not just in terms of fees but also in terms of fair , consistent and efficient application of the firearms act for grants variations and renewals across the UK, something that we don’t have at the moment!

    Regards to all
    David
    The H O Guidance is in fact much clearer :-10.28 The consideration of good reason will
    be crucial to consideration of applications,
    and this is covered in detail in Chapter 13.
    “Good reason” should be neither confined
    to need nor equated with desire. Most
    firearm certificate holders possess firearms
    for reasons of their profession, sport or
    recreation, and may properly wish to exercise
    discretion as to what types of firearms they
    choose for these purposes
    . On the other
    hand, a simple wish to own a particular sort
    of firearm is not in itself “good reason”
    without further supporting evidence of
    intentions. Chief officers of police should be
    mindful of case law (Anderson v Neilans (1940)
    and Joy v Chief Constable of Dumfries and
    Galloway (1966)) which suggests that the chief
    officer should consider the application firstly
    “from the standpoint of the applicant rather
    than from that of a possible objector”.

    “Good reason” will need to be demonstrated
    for each firearm to be held under section 1
    of the 1968 Act.

    IMO this means no compulsory DSC1 for deer stalking and in my personal opinion I very much doubt that anyone at Hampshire Police takes any notice of this part of the guidance anyway. atb Tim

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