Selling game and the tax man question

stratts

Well-Known Member
Hi guys I have just picked up 2 great farm permissions totalling about 3000 acres, 2000 of which hasn't been shot in a year so is over run with bunnies. The farm manager shot 2300 bunnies on the 1000 acre farm 2 years ago so there are likely to be thousands of them to go at this year :D

Question is if I keep taking them to the game dealer, would the tax man get involved at some point?

I'm concerned that as they obviously keep records of payment, would they get back to me and would it be classed as taxable earnings should I be lucky enough to bag loads this year?

Any non professional guys shoot this amount of bunnies??

I'm also hoping this land will be suitable for stalking muntjac and CWD in the future when I learn the ropes so this could add to the income,

Cheers
 
Hi guys I have just picked up 2 great farm permissions totalling about 3000 acres, 2000 of which hasn't been shot in a year so is over run with bunnies. The farm manager shot 2300 bunnies on the 1000 acre farm 2 years ago so there are likely to be thousands of them to go at this year :D

Question is if I keep taking them to the game dealer, would the tax man get involved at some point?

I'm concerned that as they obviously keep records of payment, would they get back to me and would it be classed as taxable earnings should I be lucky enough to bag loads this year?

Any non professional guys shoot this amount of bunnies??

I'm also hoping this land will be suitable for stalking muntjac and CWD in the future when I learn the ropes so this could add to the income,

Cheers
Probably yes. Do keep a record of all your expenses as if you are running a business e.g. Cost of purchasing & running a vehicle, fuel, phone, cost of rifle & ammunition, membership of & insurance through a shooting organisation etc. Basically what you must be able to do is show that shooting is a hobby rather than a business and that you have been defraying the cost of this by selling the Rabbits. atb, Tim
 
not unless you tell him, like anything to do with HMRC youve got to tell them first
Or you wait for the paper trail that will catch you up if you take this attitude.
Your game dealer obviously is paying you and then keeping a record. It won't take forever for HMRC to wonder who A.Nother who supplies thousands of rabbits is!
The correct answer is you should register with HMRC as self employed, you have three months to do this after you start trading, and it will be your second job, if you have another main one.
You are supposed to keep records from day one, and use this information on your first self assessment.
They give you a three month grace period to register because they'd be swamped with new business start ups that fail within their first three months if they didn't.

You would probably get away with dropping a few hundred in a year, for cash in hand, but trust me the cost of an investigation into your financial affairs which HMRC will bill you for and back date tax that you evaded isn't worth the risk if you start selling in the thousands.

Just cost the income tax into the price you intend to sell this game for.
 
not unless you tell him, like anything to do with HMRC youve got to tell them first
Not entirely true, if HMRC investigate your game dealer and find a significant sum being spent with you they will cross reference this with your tax return possibly resulting in you being investigated yourself ( a horrible experience, but that is another story!). just keep a record of the losses that you make on all your combined shooting activities.
 
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2300 rabbits at £2 each is £4600. Is the tax man going to chase you for that if you sell to several butchers and charge for the time taken to shoot them?
With that many rabbits you could do a bulk deal with Pedigree Petfoods.
 
Lucky to get £2 a bunny mate game dealer over here pays a quid but that is whole frozen and don't have to gut which is handy. No butchers round here are bothered I've tried!

I'd need a flippin big freezer to put 2300 bunnies in to sell as a bulk deal, lol!! Can't see them being bothered and spose I could spread the payments between me and mrs but you never know,

Cheers
 
As said if your going to be selling alot of bunnies for a profit then its unlikely the tax man would know you were. But if the people you supply are ever investigated either a routine check or if tehy themselves commit a tax offence then sure as eggs are eggs the tax man will knock on your door. It is good advice to save all your bills ect and travel logs for if you find you are able to make yourself some cash then look out for someone in your local paper who id trained to do your accounts and if they are good they will make you a very hefty loss I would think as your rifles ect ect will be classed as tools of the job. It might cost you £100-250 to set this up but it could be worth is as it might take you along time to have made enough cash to be paying tax this way, even then it would be very small I would think as your guns ect would still be part of your buisness.
 
spot on advice from Axe and Tim.
Cheers
Richard

Not entirely true, if HMRC investigate your game dealer and find a significant sum being spent with you they will cross reference this with your tax return possibly resulting in you being investigated yourself ( a horrible experience, but that is another story!). just keep a record of the losses that you make on all your combined shooting activities.


A paper chase mmm never seen one yet and never lightly too , remember not everyone that sells game is self employed, I know dozens of guys with paye jobs that sell venison, with no paper trail no name no address all that is required in the book is killed by dealer, where, weight and sex that's it . Where's the paper trail .none

Even if your running a vermin control company your overheads will balance things out if you clever enough .
 
A paper chase mmm never seen one yet and never lightly too , remember not everyone that sells game is self employed, I know dozens of guys with paye jobs that sell venison, with no paper trail no name no address all that is required in the book is killed by dealer, where, weight and sex that's it . Where's the paper trail .none

Even if your running a vermin control company your overheads will balance things out if you clever enough .
As I said earlier in this thread the idea is to show that you have a non-profitable hobby where you offset your expenses by selling some game, Rabbits etc. Record keeping is vital for this. So you know someone who has for years not declared their additional income - self employed or not. Should HMRC mount an investigation and have evidence from their latest return that they have undeclared income they will then presume that since owning their gun/rifle they have in every year had undeclared income, HMRC will then make a tax assessment based on this together with up to 100% penalties for non-cooperation and interest on the whole lot @ 8% and by the way, unlike criminal law where you are innocent until proven guilty this does not apply to Tax Law. Here the onus is on the taxpayer to prove HMRC wrong which is why HMRC love to make an allegation of undeclared cash earnings! Efficient record keeping is vital! atb. Tim
ps Deer sold into the food chain have to be inspected and tagged by a trained hunter (paper trail!)
 
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As I said earlier in this thread the idea is to show that you have a non-profitable hobby where you offset your expenses by selling some game, Rabbits etc. Record keeping is vital for this. So you know someone who has for years not declared their additional income - self employed or not. Should HMRC mount an investigation and have evidence from their latest return that they have undeclared income they will then presume that since owning their gun/rifle they have in every year had undeclared income, HMRC will then make a tax assessment based on this together with up to 100% penalties for non-cooperation and interest on the whole lot @ 8% and by the way, unlike criminal law where you are innocent until proven guilty this does not apply to Tax Law. Here the onus is on the taxpayer to prove HMRC wrong which is why HMRC love to make an allegation of undeclared cash earnings! Efficient record keeping is vital! atb. Tim
ps Deer sold into the food chain have to be inspected and tagged by a trained hunter (paper trail!)

There will be a paper trail mate but this last bit aint true although most think this way. I spoke with the game dealer as I am not trained (DSC etc) and the pluck has to acompany the animal seperately in a sealed bag for inspection daily by their vet. Once cleared they cough up,

Cheers
 
There will be a paper trail mate but this last bit aint true although most think this way. I spoke with the game dealer as I am not trained (DSC etc) and the pluck has to acompany the animal seperately in a sealed bag for inspection daily by their vet. Once cleared they cough up,

Cheers
If you had done DSC1 you may have learnt otherwise, perhaps one of the training providers on this site can clarify this.atb Tim
 
Tim is right regarding the delivery of venison to a game dealer. The DSC level 1 includes a qualification relating to big game hygiene. This means that the holder of the DSC qualification is a "Trained Hunter" and is able to decide if the animal is fit for human consumption. The return they complete to the game dealer signifies this and - for the main purpose of the thread - could be the start of a paper chain of evidence.
 
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Probably yes. Do keep a record of all your expenses as if you are running a business e.g. Cost of purchasing & running a vehicle, fuel, phone, cost of rifle & ammunition, membership of & insurance through a shooting organisation etc. Basically what you must be able to do is show that shooting is a hobby rather than a business and that you have been defraying the cost of this by selling the Rabbits. atb, Tim

For many years I ran two businesses side by side, Electronic Services and Wildlife Services.
On a nice day I was out on the mountains culling Reds and on a wet, windy day I was in my workshop repairing faulty TV receivers etc.
When I got the contract for the Reds there was potentially a large financial input so I mentioned it to my accountant who suggested the double approach.
I was also allowed to claim for my private Roe stalking which previously I had paid for out of my nett taxed income, also any purchased re-loading gear or ingredients were claimed for. Vehicle expenses etc were also covered even for my private activities.
It is better to be `up front` than found out.

HWH
 
If you had done DSC1 you may have learnt otherwise, perhaps one of the training providers on this site can clarify this.atb Tim

At the risk of digressing I am planning on doing the DSC1 mate and using the shooting of rabbits (and eventually Muntys) to fund the course, hence me finding out from the dealer whether I could supply them without having the trained hunter qualification, which I can. This will all be after I have paid for some stalking with guys off here for experience as I have never been.

Tim is right regarding the delivery of venison to a game dealer. The DSC level 1 includes a qualification relating to big game hygiene. This means that the holder of the DSC qualification is a "Trained Hunter" and is able to decide if the animal is fit for human consumption. The return they complete to the game dealer signifies this and - for the main purpose of the thread - could be the start of a paper chain of evidence.

Thanks mate I had read about the trained hunter part of the course. That will be the form the dealer would fill out on my behalf I guess and as you say, would start a paper trail.

I will start recording what I take to the dealers better from now on and also copy receipts, etc, relating to my shooting for future reference should the need arise.

Thanks for all the input :D
 
you could lose £5k in bunny payments in "expenses", fuel, ammo, lamps, rifles etc etc
all come out as zero in the wash
 
the farm manager may have killed 2300 rabbits , how many were big enough to sell ? As for paper trails , the trined hunter scheme was set up to prove tracability of large and small game going into the food chain , for obviouse reasons . Your game dealer should make a note of your trained hunter number and your car reg , that enough . You dont need to do level 1 to do the meat hygiene test , you can do it via NGO training on 01388 665899
 
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