Falling deer numbers are threat to Sutherland economy

scotspine

Well-Known Member
Falling deer numbers are threat to Sutherland economy

Looks like the debate is heating up in the Highlands.

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This calf did not survive the harsh 2010/11 winter

A WARNING flag has gone up this week over falling deer numbers in Sutherland.
Sporting estates are being urged to reduce their deer culls because high mortality rates during the recent poor winters have led to a drastic reduction in the county’s deer population.
A new research paper suggests the economy of the county could be affected if estates persist in heavy deer culls.
The Scottish Gamekeepers Association (SGA) is unveiling the research document at its annual general meeting in Inverness next Friday, 2nd March.
It is the first time that the SGA has held its AGM in the Highland capital.
The new paper, details of which were released earlier this week, is entitled “The Economic Importance of Red Deer to Scotland’s Rural Economy and the Political Threat now facing the country’s Iconic Species.”
The research was conducted across 20 per cent of Sutherland’s land area. The county was chosen as it is regarded as a stronghold for red deer stalking.
It includes sporting figures compiled by Inverness chartered accountants Angus and Donald Mackenzie.
It is understood the paper concludes that sporting estates can no longer afford to cull the same numbers of deer as they have done in previous years.
Experienced Deeside gamekeeper Peter Fraser wrote an introduction to the research paper.
He states: “We’re laying our greatest wildlife assets to waste without considering the consequences. And it may already be too late in some places to prevent the devastation from being permanent.”
Mr Fraser claims some estates are undertaking swingeing deer culls to protect forestry and conservation projects
 
Hmmm yes, culling too many - well perhaps in itself, it's a partial cause. Culling too many after SNH fencing across estates, with deer unable to get to their usual wintering shelters as a result of the fencing - particularly with the two very hard Highland winters of 2009/10 & 2010/11.
The culling of deer in heavy numbers by FC & SNH in recent years, - these factors will not have aided the cause of red deer survival and the SNH heavy handed approach to conserving vegetation/forestation rather than deer is simply nonsense.
Wild life (Deer) should be considered as much an asset as the protection of forestation, but do both sympathetically.

The somewhat easier winter of 2011/12 will have been a help, but won't remove the fencing and it will take some years of careful management by estate keepers to restore the red deer stock.
 
A load of bilge great what crap people can compile, SNH were asked the very question in the last TWO hard winters were the cull figures to be reduced the answer was NO stalkers were still to complete the same culls as normal .


Fencing in Sutherland mmm thats a new one as well it was all laying at the side of the road last time i was up rolled up waiting to go to the scrappy when something big enough came along all the way from Larig to Altnaharra
 
I don't understand.

There is a high mortality during harsh winters so the answer is to REDUCE the cull?

How does that work?

If they are dying then isn't it because of lack of food - I can't imagine they are freezing to death.

Maybe the culls aren't big enough
 
it used to happen most winters when they were harder, deer died and this kept the population in check. many estates were happy with this and allowed thousands of deer to die each winter and early spring it did their job for them. the long run of mild winters and underculling allowed the red deer in scotland to rise from 100,000 in the 1960s to 350,000 within 40 years. not exactly good management. a couple of harder winters in 2009 and 2010 will have killed some deer but there will still be 3 times as many than before. a good bet that there are less estate stalkers and ghillies now than in 1965. more deer, less stalkers. in montana thousands of deer have been wiped out by EHD this followed a hard winter when deer were in poor nick. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10030828 .
Be warned the continued greed and poor management of red deer by estates is the thing that threatens deer not forestry, contractors and spotlights.

I know that this view will not be popular but it is no less true because of that.
 
it used to happen most winters when they were harder, deer died and this kept the population in check. many estates were happy with this and allowed thousands of deer to die each winter and early spring it did their job for them. the long run of mild winters and underculling allowed the red deer in scotland to rise from 100,000 in the 1960s to 350,000 within 40 years. not exactly good management. a couple of harder winters in 2009 and 2010 will have killed some deer but there will still be 3 times as many than before. a good bet that there are less estate stalkers and ghillies now than in 1965. more deer, less stalkers. in montana thousands of deer have been wiped out by EHD this followed a hard winter when deer were in poor nick. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10030828 .
Be warned the continued greed and poor management of red deer by estates is the thing that threatens deer not forestry, contractors and spotlights.

I know that this view will not be popular but it is no less true because of that.
You are entitled to your own thoughts, but I think your talking out of your a***
 
Its not a popular view thats for sure, but its more or less what I was saying in another thread especially the bit about increasing numbers, and I was shot down in flames a lot on here I would imagine are a younger generation
that don't remember what deer numbers used to be they see a drop in numbers in recent times but don't realise that they are still much higher than they were forty years ago.

At the moment its blame the forestry and contractors for all the problems but I worked as a stalker long enough on estates to know what you are talking about.

Thats not to say forestry is blameless, its not some of their practises in certain areas leave a lot to be desired
 
Scotspine ,i agree with the theme of your original thread , yes Sutherland,s economy will suffer without the deer . For the last ten years i have taken a group of lads to shoot hinds north of Inverness . Last year when i went to book i was told" there wasn,t enough surpluss to shoot ". When i mentioned " Oh maybe next year" i was told "i doubt it " . The money we spent Food , drink , fuel Etc will now be spent elsewhere .Simple economics yes Sutherland will suffer finacially.
 
I don't understand.

If they are dying then isn't it because of lack of food - I can't imagine they are freezing to death.

Maybe the culls aren't big enough

Plainly you haven't been in Sutherland when the temperatures dropped into the -20C region between Altnahara & Kinbrace....for the two seasons of 2009 & 2010. Yes, deer do freeze to death. Also they starve, the snow so deep & frozen for weeks preventing them from breaking through to where they can find food. They get run down and run out of energy.

Others haven't noticed the fencing across estates between Assynt and the east, where estate owners have taken the SNH shilling & areas are now closed to the deer. These now closed areas are often their usual wintering grounds where they can get shelter & food.

I'm not saying there aren't good numbers of deer across the land as a whole. However, for the last six years I've shot on an estate of some 40,000 acres where the sport was plentiful in the past. For the last two seasons though, the deer have been noticeably fewer & in truth, in pretty good condition....a shame to shoot good ones. Many fewer calves seen compared to previous seasons too. So, the net cull has been reduced on the estate.
Whether that's a good or bad thing is another matter.

One thing is absolutely definite - the reduced cull numbers mean less money into the estate coffers.....so if it had been e.g. 10 hinds @ £130 + VAT each per week & it's now 5 to cull.......the estates will be putting their prices up. That too is nuts. More money less sport? Doesn't compute.
Not to mention HM customs who also be losing revenue..not that I worry much about that though.:tiphat:
 
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Plainly you haven't been in Sutherland when the temperatures dropped into the -20C region between Altnahara & Kinbrace....for the two seasons of 2009 & 2010. Yes, deer do freeze to death. Also they starve, the snow so deep & frozen for weeks preventing them from breaking through to where they can find food. They get run down and run out of energy.

Others haven't noticed the fencing across estates between Assynt and the east, where estate owners have taken the SNH shilling & areas are now closed to the deer. These now closed areas are often their usual wintering grounds where they can get shelter & food.

I'm not saying there aren't good numbers of deer across the land as a whole. However, for the last six years I've shot on an estate of some 40,000 acres where the sport was plentiful in the past. For the last two seasons though, the deer have been noticeably fewer & in truth, in pretty good condition....a shame to shoot good ones. Many fewer calves seen compared to previous seasons too. So, the net cull has been reduced on the estate.
Whether that's a good or bad thing is another matter.

One thing is absolutely definite - the reduced cull numbers mean less money into the estate coffers.....so if it had been e.g. 10 hinds @ £130 + VAT each per week & it's now 5 to cull.......the estates will be putting their prices up. That too is nuts. More money less sport? Doesn't compute.
Not to mention HM customs who also be losing revenue..not that I worry much about that though.:tiphat:


Winters like 2009 -10 did not used to be that uncommon, but they were the first hard winters for some time and took there toll.

You talk of fencing of the deer wintering grounds this has always been a problem since commercial forestry appeared, as invariably the ground that the deer winter on is the most suitable for growing trees this causes problems in that if the forestry is fenced you either get deer that could not get to the lower ground dead against the fence, or snow builds up against the fence then the deer get over, when the snow goes the deer are trapped inside the fence and are shot by the forestry, you can't blame them as Red deer can do a huge amount of damage
to trees especially when there is snow on the ground they have nothing else to eat, they will bark the trees all trees that have been barked will die. I have seen acres of trees with the bark removed in a complete circle to the height the deer could reach this is a huge loss as far as forestry is concerned.

If forestry is not fenced then you have the same problem only worse as more of them get down into the trees you don't get deer dieing against fences but you get even more shot by forestry.

A lot of this could be avoided with a bit of cooperation between forestry and private estates and maybe sharing the expense of fencing, though this has been done in some areas a lot of estates think fencing should only be the responsibility of the forestry as its "their trees" its surely worth considering if its going to save your deer population

Better planing of fences in the first place fencing along ridges where snow will blow off rather than pile up against it where possible can help, as would leaving corridors through the forestry [fenced] allowing the deer down on to lower ground in the glen bottoms in bad weather.


Possibly removing and repositioning fences in certain areas allowing deer some limited access to woodland and hence shelter could also take some of the pressure off commercial forestry.

Of course these measures would initially cost money,but I wonder how costs would compare long term against loss of revenue by estates, and the paying of contractors and damage to timber by the forestry.

Now I know that this is a bit of a pipe dream and there is little cooperation between estates and forestry but its surely in everybody's interest to try, its time we started to look for some solutions to the problem, there will always be some conflict of interest of course as it would not be possible to stop damage in every instance and as trees are a crop the forestry must be able to protect their interests.


Forestry is not going to go away so its time we tried to see things from each side.

In the days of the Red deer commission, while not perfect they tried to be balanced, unfortunately SNH has not improved matters.


Time to go I am starting to ramble:old:
 
Thank you Gaz for that intelligent contribution. My a*** can at least put forward a reasoned response.
Your Welcome Cervus1981. As I say everyone is entitled to their own thoughts. In a nutshell, anyone who can say that FORESTRY - CONTRACTORS - SPOTLIGHTS are no threat to the red deer population doesn't live on the same planet as me :eek: I have witnessed their numbers being decimated over the last 15 to 20 years and more so in the last 10 years. In my experience it most definatley hasn't been the mis management or greed of the estates, but purely down to your 3 named innocent parties.
 
I don't understand.

There is a high mortality during harsh winters so the answer is to REDUCE the cull?

How does that work?

If they are dying then isn't it because of lack of food - I can't imagine they are freezing to death.

Maybe the culls aren't big enough

Snows like hell, freezes over, and they can't get to the food source. Doesn't matter how healthy they are, if they can't get to food then they die. Some places didn't thaw for months over the last couple of years.

SNH saying that culls should be maintained either shows what their agenda is or shows how little knowledge they have on what they are supposed to represent.
 
Plainly you haven't been in Sutherland when the temperatures dropped into the -20C region between Altnahara & Kinbrace....for the two seasons of 2009 & 2010. Yes, deer do freeze to death. Also they starve, the snow so deep & frozen for weeks preventing them from breaking through to where they can find food. They get run down and run out of energy

Snows like hell, freezes over, and they can't get to the food source. Doesn't matter how healthy they are, if they can't get to food then they die. Some places didn't thaw for months over the last couple of years.

No. I have never been to Sutherland - ever, let alone when it is down to -20

That's fair enough but in the Red Deer's worldwide range our winters are relatively short and mild. You would have thought they would be able to handle them. I take the point though that in the colder weather they head for the shelter of the forest and then get hammered.

Deeangeo - Why do you think the calf numbers are lower even though the herd is in better general condition?

Cervus and Bogtrotter seem to be on the same page and their arguments make sense to me

the long run of mild winters and underculling allowed the red deer in scotland to rise from 100,000 in the 1960s to 350,000 within 40 years. not exactly good management. a couple of harder winters in 2009 and 2010 will have killed some deer but there will still be 3 times as many than before. a good bet that there are less estate stalkers and ghillies now than in 1965.

Its not a popular view thats for sure, but its more or less what I was saying in another thread especially the bit about increasing numbers, and I was shot down in flames a lot on here I would imagine are a younger generation
that don't remember what deer numbers used to be they see a drop in numbers in recent times but don't realise that they are still much higher than they were forty years ago.

I come from a position of ignorance having nothing to do with Scottish Deer at all, I am finding this whole debate very interesting as there are such stark differences in the opinions on both sides
 
I can't easily say exactly why there are fewer calves showing over the past three years. But the deer (Hinds in particular) that have survived where my friends & I shoot are probably in better condition because they haven't got calves with them they need to support.
I don't know that's the case,....just a guess.
The estate I've been shooting on for the last six years has undergone/is undergoing a major fencing regime - started in late 2010 and will continue throughout 2012 & the deer have to find their way around, but simply cannot get to areas they've been used to going. It's meant they've been pushed to outer extremeties of the estate and even onto surrounding farmland & other estates.....so, fewer deer and much more difficult to shoot.


Although recent winters have been hard, it's not like a hard winter is new. The difference was made by the harshness lasting so long. The fencing is a separate issue really, but in harsh times has a disastrous effect when the two conditions are combined.
 
Deer Numbers

Well deer do starve and freeze to death thats mainly how they die lack of food and shelter. And forestry spotlighting and snh do kill a lot of deer and upset the management of areas and make it hard for the smaller estate to survive, they kill deer for fun and do not listen to anyone begging them to try and see the bigger picture so that we can all survive, why should I go bankrupt and struggle because the fc contractors and snh kill everything in sight and don't leave me enough to live on, each year iam cutting down my cull so that there is still a few deer on the hill, they are thieves, robbers and liars thye do not care.
 
A load of bilge great what crap people can compile, SNH were asked the very question in the last TWO hard winters were the cull figures to be reduced the answer was NO stalkers were still to complete the same culls as normal .


Fencing in Sutherland mmm thats a new one as well it was all laying at the side of the road last time i was up rolled up waiting to go to the scrappy when something big enough came along all the way from Larig to Altnaharra

Mmmm, strange that, must be just Morey & Aberdeenshire then:
[h=3]INVITATION TO QUOTE FOR DEER FENCE CONSTRUCTION IN MORAY AND ABERDEENSHIRE FOREST DISTRICT[/h]The Forestry Commission is inviting quotations for the erection of deer fences at the following forest locations within Moray & Aberdeenshire Forest District.
Bunzeach and Durris Main
 
Mmmm, strange that, must be just Morey & Aberdeenshire then:
INVITATION TO QUOTE FOR DEER FENCE CONSTRUCTION IN MORAY AND ABERDEENSHIRE FOREST DISTRICT

The Forestry Commission is inviting quotations for the erection of deer fences at the following forest locations within Moray & Aberdeenshire Forest District.
Bunzeach and Durris Main

Only 3900m ....might just protect 100ha.

Deer shooting contract for 600 roe up for grabs in Dumfries (Forestry Commission)
 
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