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Thread: A few thoughts

  1. #1
    SD Regular teyhan1's Avatar
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    A few thoughts

    I have been shooting deer for 22 years now and during that time have noticed a significant drop in the number of quality trophies being shot.

    There are of course a number of different reasons for this but primarily it is due to us, i.e. stalkers.

    Many of my permissions that I have, border Forestry, Estate or Farms all of which are stalked over. It is clear what the forestry policy is on deer however any of the significant changes in quality have always come from the estate or farm boundarys. Whereas before you would watch the deer on your land and then of course look too at what was on the neighbours, there was always previously a good head of deer. When managed correctly you could then always rely on certain pieces of land producing one or two medal bucks per year. And this would be every year.

    Let me give you an example. One farm I have managed for 14 years.
    Year 1. Heavy fox population, noticeable lack of young animals, cull lots of foxes, took 1x small buck
    yr 2. population at about 14x animals, cull 2x bucks 2x does
    yr3. population 16x animal, cull 2x bucks and 3x does
    yr4. now we start to get trophy animals cull 1x gold 1x good buck and 3x does population now stable
    yr5. 1x gold and 1x silver+ does
    yr 6 2x gold +does
    and so on ......until
    yr10. high seat appears next door. 1x gold + does
    yr11 where have all the animals gone? no cull
    yr12 ditto
    yr13 ditto
    yr14 yet to find out but I think I already know

    Should I take line of "I'd better shoot them before he does?" NO. Why because I am a Deer Manger NOT a Deer MANGLER.
    When I arrived on this ground there were deer her and when I leave there will be deer here. My job was never to shoot them out but merely to manage them, I refuse to come down to his level.

    Just because someone shoots on your boundary doesn't mean you should shoot every animal. Where is the co-operation? For the benefit of the deer. If your proud to display your photo's of young 4pt bucks in velvet then do. Just don't come crying and saying why won't my ground produce good heads? I bet they were there when you first arrived.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by teyhan1 View Post
    Should I take line of "I'd better shoot them before he does?" NO. Why because I am a Deer Manger NOT a Deer MANGLER.
    When I arrived on this ground there were deer her and when I leave there will be deer here. My job was never to shoot them out but merely to manage them, I refuse to come down to his level.
    All i can say is +1!
    Cheers
    Richard

  3. #3
    In this day and age i think that co-operation has long since gone to be replaced by the desire for short tern goals,
    with the rising number of stalkers the land rentals rise so the mentality develops where any deer seen is taken to
    get a perceeved return on their investment,and another deer shooter not stalker/manager is born.All you can do is
    stick to your principles and try to educate those who might listen.

  4. #4
    Well im new to stalking but can see what you are saying. Like you say its deer management not iradication. I'm sure if everyone had the same mentality as your nieghbour then deer stalking in the UK could possably grind to a holt in a few seasons. Personally I have only had 2 stalks one on foot and one high seat. Now this is my personal opnion and probably doesn't account for much being a novice but here goes. STALKING theres the clue. Although i was happy to take my second deer from the high seat probably more so as it was my first days stalking, I far more enjoyed the stalk on foot. The fact you have to use your knowledge of field craft to get close enough for the shot. My adrenaline levels were much higher than when sat in the seat waiting for an unsuspecting animal to wounder into your line of sight. Dont get me wrong high seats arnt a bad thing some ares need them if cull numbers are to be reached. But i know there are people out there that want to SHOOT deer not STALK deer.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by teyhan1 View Post

    Let me give you an example. One farm I have managed for 14 years.
    Year 1. Heavy fox population, noticeable lack of young animals, cull lots of foxes, took 1x small buck
    yr 2. population at about 14x animals, cull 2x bucks 2x does
    yr3. population 16x animal, cull 2x bucks and 3x does
    yr4. now we start to get trophy animals cull 1x gold 1x good buck and 3x does population now stable
    yr5. 1x gold and 1x silver+ does
    yr 6 2x gold +does
    and so on ......until
    yr10. high seat appears next door. 1x gold + does
    yr11 where have all the animals gone? no cull
    yr12 ditto
    yr13 ditto
    yr14 yet to find out but I think I already know

    .
    what i find strange is no bronze/ silver you go from culls to golds in a few years and then no smaller medals when they decline????
    maybe just a good year or 2 or some good genes passed through?
    I would suggest the lack of lesser medals suggest flukes not managment or have i misunderstood your figures above??
    Last edited by www.yorkshireroestalking.; 09-04-2012 at 10:49.

  6. #6
    Agree, but also there is a lot of selective roe buck poaching going on, there is big money being made by some individuals.

    Also to many deer shooters or should they be called trophy hunters that bucks are being shot and does remaining untouched. On my travels from Bristol to Taunton I see many roe, but the ratio of bucks to does is about 1:5, and have not noticed any really good bucks.

    Just look at the published medal tables, how come certain individuals shoot so many medal heads, where are they are they all coming from I wonder?

    I watched several good bucks early last season but had no desire to shoot them, but they weren't about later presumably shot when they strayed next door. The only good bucks I now have are in very inaccessible places with no neighboring shoots.

    It is a sad day but it appears that a lot of stalkers are adopting the shoot on sight because if I don't somebody else will.

    D

  7. #7
    Teyhan1,
    you refuse to come down to his level, I would say what is his level?
    Perhaps he does not have luxury of being a deer manager like yourself, perhaps his remit is completelty different to yours.
    just a thought.

  8. #8
    Just wonder how big the piece of ground you talk about is. I have a piece which is 300 acres and the roe pretty much stay on it. If it was a 1000 acres or more I would expect quite a few roe to have territories solely on the piece.

    Could it be poachers also?

    Biggest issue is that wild deer belong to no one so we are all subject to our neighbours behaviour. You seem to be a pro guide so your interestes are best represented by having a good population and some good heads among them. Other interests may be better represented by having a very low population of deer full stop. Others by the income they can derive from venison (although I have to agree this can be a very short term strategy).

    Overall the deer populations are burgeoning and that suggests that the main issues you experience are localised. I stand to be corrected but I also believe that the number and quality of trophy roe heads in general are also rising.

    I have a friend down south who manages ground for fallow, quite a chunk of ground. The neighbouring stalker was lazy and eventually his landlord got brassed off with deer damage. A new guy came in and took the landlords task to hand. My mate only gets about 25% of the deer he did now. In this scenario who is wrong??

    Landlords are a peculiar bunch, I have some that see a deer and believe they have a problem. Others "like to see deer around" but wont believe me when I tell them how many there actually are so I tread gently even though many more SHOULD be taken.

    If you dont own your own sodding great estate then these are all the vagaries that make up modern stalking.

  9. #9
    SD Regular teyhan1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by news of the world View Post
    Teyhan1,
    you refuse to come down to his level, I would say what is his level?
    Perhaps he does not have luxury of being a deer manager like yourself, perhaps his remit is completelty different to yours.
    just a thought.
    Personally I don't care what his level is. I have been asked to wipe out deer and have refused to do so. I have been asked to shoot does out of season, I refused. If we are the ones holding the trigger then it is our responsibility to educate the uneducated or ignorant.

    There is nothing wrong with shooting the larger bucks. It is when you start to shoot without consideration for what is coming in years to come that you start to run into problems. How many of you have picked up a new piece of ground that has never been shot, that has a quality buck or two on it? They are always there if allowed to mature. The pieces of ground that tend to be rubbish are the ones that have neighbouring stalkers who have 'all the gear and no idea'.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by www.yorkshireroestalking. View Post
    what i find strange is no bronze/ silver you go from culls to golds in a few years and then no smaller medals when they decline????
    maybe just a good year or 2 or some good genes passed through?
    I would suggest the lack of lesser medals suggest flukes not managment or have i misunderstood your figures above??
    Totally agree.Very strange to just have golds and a lack of lesser medal and why are you shooting mostly golds when you are managing and not trophy/medal shooting?
    I have a small 140 permission that is all plantation and every buck on it gets the bullet if the chance occurs.The neighbouring land is also shot and from the last 5 years i have had 2 golds,3 silvers and 2 bronzes with another possible gold boiling just now so that surely goes against the grain of good management.There are way too many factors to blame it on your neighbours policy.
    Last edited by sako751sg; 09-04-2012 at 11:20.

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