A Trained Deer Dog? Really?

barongcw

Well-Known Member
At the time of writing I see that 2321 hits have been made on 6pointers site “Poll : Trained deer dog“ and that 82 persons have answered that they have either access to a or a deer dog themselves.
That is 3.5%. Room for improvement here, I think.
But what is more interesting is that 32 people answered that they have a “fully trained deer dog”.
That begs the question: What should a “fully trained deerdog” that might be called in to assist another stalker to help find his wounded deer be able to do?
In my view he should:
1 Be able to sit and stay for a minimum of 25 minutes out ofsight of everything and everybody whilst a rifle shot is fired about halfway.
2 Work out a track of not less than 1000 meters without blood but with diversions like squirrels, rabbits, other deer tracks, car tracks, roads, rivers, impenetrable bushes etc. The track should be not less than 24 hours old.
3 Stop and show his handler each time he has found something from the deer on the track, be it hair, guts, blood or whatever.
4 If taken off the lead at the end he should be able to stop the deer by barking so that it can be approached and shot or, if so trained, use a bringsel.
5 I do not mention PRA Tests, HD tests, size, confirmation, character etc etc. I take these for granted!

Let me be honest. My old "trained deer dog" cannot do it and the young one cannot do it yet!
And yours?
 
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Mine won't do verweisen as I haven't taught them but the new one will be taught it.
Everything else no problem
 
How dogs does it take to get it right ?
I an fifty something now wonder how many dogs i have left ?
Its very true what they say, you never stop learning...!!!

I hope to get another this year, lots to improve on.
 
An interesting thread - I have to say that I think it's over-complicating the subject. I agree that is a poor state of affairs that so few people have or have access to a deer dog but by by laying down such criteria this will not help the issue. My own dog has been used to track injured deer, both from rifle and more commonly RTC's. She has done this in varied terrain, weather conditions, over distances from 20 metres to 300 + metres (although never 1000 metres), on freshly hit animals and trails over 24 hours old. She has not always been successful but has been so more times than not. The person who has hit the deer has always been grateful that I have attended and I have always felt I and my dog have done the best we can under the circumstances.

Looking at your list - my dog would fail on all counts - 'fully trained' is a personal thing, based on the handlers expectations and needs. My dog meets both of these for me and so I would call her fully trained.

To set down such criteria is more relevant to a working test scenario rather than a practical working dog. I know there are many who do both with their dogs and good luck to them, just don't dismiss as 'untrained' those who meet their handlers needs.
 
Looking at your list - my dog would fail on all counts - 'fully trained' is a personal thing, based on the handlers expectations and needs. My dog meets both of these for me and so I would call her fully trained.

To set down such criteria is more relevant to a working test scenario rather than a practical working dog. I know there are many who do both with their dogs and good luck to them, just don't dismiss as 'untrained' those who meet their handlers needs.

By teaching your dog the various points I made he is ready for everything. It is not so much a matter that the dog meets your needs but more that he meets the need of a wounded deer ie that he is able to find a wounded one with confidence.

It is not rocket science, the Danish Tracking Societ has mainly labradors, not specialised tracking hounds, so I am told. The dogs can do it easily, it is the handler that is the key.
 
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WEll said Baron,
The list looks daunting to anyone contemplating training a dog for deer, but it is no more so, than training a gundog to a high standard.
To pass the first breed test of the official K B G S, which must be successfully completed before the dog is three years old. your dog on finding the carcase, and after showing you it has found it.
Must NOT !,
Show any sign of nervousness ,
Start to eat, tear off, or tear off and try to bury any part thereof.
Nor must it leave the carcase.
Then the dog is made to liedown, 3 mtrs away from the carcase,and stay while you and a Judge go away more than 50mtrs out of sight of the dog. ( two more judges watch the dog from a distance ,eg a highseat,) then after 15min you fire a rifle, The dog must not move or leave it's place, nor show any sign of nervousness to the shot.Then after another 15min of staying , another judge approaches the carcase , The dog must protect the carcase by barking , growling , snarling,in a threatening manor !, but it will fail if it bites or attacks the judge or shows , any sign of nervousness, or moves away from the carcase.Then there is the lead work more sitting and staying with you out of sight the lead work is to simulate stalking through some dense young trees to show the dog works with you not getting tangled so that you can work as a team.. Simple , Tch!
Regards Widu.
 
WEll said Baron,
The list looks daunting to anyone contemplating training a dog for deer, but it is no more so, than training a gundog to a high standard.
To pass the first breed test of the official K B G S, which must be successfully completed before the dog is three years old. your dog on finding the carcase, and after showing you it has found it.
Must NOT !,
Show any sign of nervousness ,
Start to eat, tear off, or tear off and try to bury any part thereof.
Nor must it leave the carcase.
Then the dog is made to liedown, 3 mtrs away from the carcase,and stay while you and a Judge go away more than 50mtrs out of sight of the dog. ( two more judges watch the dog from a distance ,eg a highseat,) then after 15min you fire a rifle, The dog must not move or leave it's place, nor show any sign of nervousness to the shot.Then after another 15min of staying , another judge approaches the carcase , The dog must protect the carcase by barking , growling , snarling,in a threatening manor !, but it will fail if it bites or attacks the judge or shows , any sign of nervousness, or moves away from the carcase.Then there is the lead work more sitting and staying with you out of sight the lead work is to simulate stalking through some dense young trees to show the dog works with you not getting tangled so that you can work as a team.. Simple , Tch!
Regards Widu.

Interesting.

You know more about BMH than I do.

An HS has to pass before 2 years. Are you certain it is 3 years for a BMH? Could not find the details on the KBGS website.

But I did notice that a BMH can do the Main trial, Hauptprufung, without a lead at all. Is it the same for the pre-trial, vorprufung?
 
How many 'fully trained deer dogs' do you estimate are currently being used UK wide then Baron?

Impossible to answer.

As there are no advanced tests as yet in the UK that have been passed by any dog (I know of 2 dogs that have passed German tests), to give a number would be the wildest of guesses.

It is not like DSC1 or 2 where some central authority can give you a precise number. We are at the beginning of the road here.

Also I do not know how many stalkers with good deer dogs do not follow this website.

For all I know there could be a few readers who have a dog that can do what is required but they are keeping their head well down the parapet.(And grinning broadly)
 
+ one with hawshill.
I do agree with you baron that the handler is the key.
However my dog (GWP) is trained (ongoing) to the best of my ability, and without doubt has a natural talent for deer.
He has also just completed his first season on pheasant, again with a lot of natural talent.
I dont doubt that a handler with time and skill could get him to do all the things you have listed, but I do not possess either.
what I have is a dog that I am confident will find any deer I shoot.
Sinbad
ps I ticked the box for the fully trained deer dog, I used my requirements to make this choice and accept that after following the thread I would have been better ticking box 2.
 
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Waiting with a carcase sound easy but it is not.Old buck was an expert and you could leave him for hours my new bitch christ she wants to find a new one once she finds the first. 20 seconds but believe me he would wait long infact i am sure he could not care less.

 
sinbad;what I have is a dog that I am confident will find any deer I shoot. [/QUOTE said:
Ah but the aim of the training is to get your dog to such a level that he will also find the badly shot deer from other people if you are called in to help.
 
I agree and I have a great deal of admiration for for you and others that are prepared to commit so much time and effort into such a rigorous training regime.
I will be using your advise to improve my own and my dogs ability.
But full time work including time away from home, part time keepering on a pheasant syndicate, deer control and family commitments mean free time is something I have very little of.
Regards
Sinbad
 
At the time of writing I see that 2321 hits have been made on 6pointers site “Poll : Trained deer dog“ and that 82 persons have answered that they have either access to a or a deer dog themselves.
That is 3.5%. Room for improvement here, I think.
But what is more interesting is that 32 people answered that they have a “fully trained deer dog”.
That begs the question: What should a “fully trained deerdog” that might be called in to assist another stalker to help find his wounded deer be able to do?
In my view he should:
1 Be able to sit and stay for a minimum of 25 minutes out ofsight of everything and everybody whilst a rifle shot is fired about halfway.
2 Work out a track of not less than 1000 meters without blood but with diversions like squirrels, rabbits, other deer tracks, car tracks, roads, rivers, impenetrable bushes etc. The track should be not less than 24 hours old.
3 Stop and show his handler each time he has found something from the deer on the track, be it hair, guts, blood or whatever.
4 If taken off the lead at the end he should be able to stop the deer by barking so that it can be approached and shot or, if so trained, use a bringsel.
5 I do not mention PRA Tests, HD tests, size, confirmation, character etc etc. I take these for granted!

Let me be honest. My old "trained deer dog" cannot do it and the young one cannot do it yet!
And yours?
could i ask why the dog must wait 25 mins while you go off to fire a few more shots please. my gsp will track deer and sit and wait for me but after i have got there gralloched the deer i would imagine after i walked off out of sight as soon as another shot was fired he would come to find me. he would wait if someone was with him but i cant see him staying on his own and we stalk together and wouldnt leave him anyway. i dont understand the need to leave a dog behind,wouldnt it be easier to mark the spot with flags/gps tag and go off with the dog to track more?, atb wayne
 
could i ask why the dog must wait 25 mins while you go off to fire a few more shots please. my gsp will track deer and sit and wait for me but after i have got there gralloched the deer i would imagine after i walked off out of sight as soon as another shot was fired he would come to find me. he would wait if someone was with him but i cant see him staying on his own and we stalk together and wouldnt leave him anyway. i dont understand the need to leave a dog behind,wouldnt it be easier to mark the spot with flags/gps tag and go off with the dog to track more?, atb wayne

The aim of teaching a dog that is to make certain that he does not move when you do not want him to. Not much difference from the sit and stay you teach a labrador.

It could be that you think you have seen the wounded deer you have been looking for and you want to have a very quiet look to see if you are right and then may be try an anchor shot or you want to observe some deer when there is little cover or you have to crawl over a bare hilltop.

You will seldom need it but it is very useful that the dog can do it when needed. It is easily taught and reinforces general obedience.
 
Is it ground hog day this subject is starting to get on my t---s its been done to death on i dont know how many threads lately !!!!!!!!:banghead:
 
Is it ground hog day this subject is starting to get on my t---s its been done to death on i dont know how many threads lately !!!!!!!!:banghead:

Seeing close up photos on threads of fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox after fox blown up with a varmint round bores the c**p out of me as well so I tend to simply just not look at those threads....

I know what a shot fox looks like after all as do we all, but this topic is current, relevant and very important to the future welfare of wounded deer. Just my thoughts on it...
 
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