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Thread: "Driven" Deer...

  1. #1

    "Driven" Deer...

    Just read the long dog thread and it got me thinking..

    I walked my lab round my permission a couple of days ago, I am wondering wether he will have any deer dog potential and so was keeping him to heel and practising waiting etc. After rounding a few fields of barley on the edge of the permission I came to a field full of recently calved cows. They really don't like seeing a dog so rather than put him on a lead or walk him to heel ( which he does well around stock) I put him over the fence into a sitka plantation that is not on my permission. I trust him in these circumstances even though I can't see him, apart from the odd myxie rabbit he has never caught anything and he needed free run. I sometimes walk him off the lead in these woods anyway. I could hear him in the wood about 50 yds ahead of me and then a doe jumped out of the wood and into the field about 70 yds ahead of me, obviously spooked by the dog. Had this been a buck and had I had a rifle, would I have been doing anything illegal if I shot it?

  2. #2
    Sounds a bit dodgy to me.

    If the ground with the sitka is private without any public rights of way, then there could possibly be implications under the hunting with dogs act, as you are deliberately pushing animals from ground where you or your dog have have no legal right to be purley to enable you to shoot them on your permission. There could also be an element of theft, as deer that are not kept in enclosures are classed as wild animals and as such not capable of ownership, but someone will own the shooting / stalking rights and by deliberately pushing deer off their land without permission and then shooting them you would have "permanently deprived them" of the right to take that animal whilst on their land. There's also trespass with intent and if you shot an animal over the boundary of your permission, armed trespass.

    Wouldn't it be better to approach the landowner to see if you could get the rights, plus if there is already someone stalking the ground then you are definately not going to make any friends. Think first.

    Ade

  3. #3
    In Scotland you are breaking the law as your dog is unaccompanied on the 'other' ground and is not under control (on lead).
    How would you feel if someone was driving beasts offf your ground ? .... not clever !

  4. #4
    Besides the legal aspect which as has been said isn't clever,your dog will very soon be running wild whenever it can or be allowed to,best way to ruin a deer dog is to let it free run and chase/drive deer,the route to an unsteady dog if you ask me.

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  5. #5
    I had the feeling that it isn't clever, or particularly ethical either. I was just wondering what any legal position was. As for the dog being "under control" does that really mean on a lead? I'm not sure. The dog is middle aged and he doesn't chase deer, I have trained him not to, he would when he was younger.

    I will need to approach the owner of the sitka anyway do work out what we can do if we get a "runner" that goes back into the wood.. There is a public footpath through the wood so any non shooting related access is fine.

  6. #6
    "under control" means being able to see your dog and control it,how do you know he's not chasing deer when you can't see him and don't know where he is at,driving deer you are wanting dog to chase deer out of a wood,are you not?

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigievarkiller View Post
    In Scotland you are breaking the law as your dog is unaccompanied on the 'other' ground and is not under control (on lead).
    How would you feel if someone was driving beasts offf your ground ? .... not clever !
    A dog doesn't need to be on a lead to meet the "under control" requirement.

    When we provide supporting firepower for the hounds of foot, many deer make a fleeting appearance. No crime is being commited, the dogs are under control and are not hounding the deer and the intentions are all lawful.

    I'd think it would be more of an issue re: who owns the land the dog is on? and... what is your intention?

    To be an offence the act also has to be "deliberate".... In Scotland.

  8. #8
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    Actually, the answer, as usual in ALL of these "legal" discussions is... READ THE RELEVANT LAW. Then decide for yourself... and ... if then you still don't know the answer... you'd probably be well advised not to do it at all.
    Last edited by Tamus; 28-04-2012 at 08:59. Reason: typos

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom D View Post
    Just read the long dog thread and it got me thinking..

    I walked my lab round my permission a couple of days ago, I am wondering wether he will have any deer dog potential and so was keeping him to heel and practising waiting etc. After rounding a few fields of barley on the edge of the permission I came to a field full of recently calved cows. They really don't like seeing a dog so rather than put him on a lead or walk him to heel ( which he does well around stock) I put him over the fence into a sitka plantation that is not on my permission. I trust him in these circumstances even though I can't see him, apart from the odd myxie rabbit he has never caught anything and he needed free run. I sometimes walk him off the lead in these woods anyway. I could hear him in the wood about 50 yds ahead of me and then a doe jumped out of the wood and into the field about 70 yds ahead of me, obviously spooked by the dog. Had this been a buck and had I had a rifle, would I have been doing anything illegal if I shot it?
    Incidentally, just for clarity here, if I caught you hunting my land this way I'd have called the Police, given them the evidence and, of course, let them decide.

    By "caught" I mean... If had an effective video capture on my mobile phone of the whole process.

    If I had no corroborating evidence I would simply have reported what I saw. However, you may or not be aware that, unusually in Scots law, "poaching" only requires the testimony of one person and it would have been up to you to provide a defence against the charge.

  10. #10
    You are right Tamus.. it does not have to be on a lead but the fact that the OP's dog was chasing (and the intention is to flush) the deer, I feel that would fall withion the definition of not under control.

    If I came across an unsupervised dog chasing deer on my ground Im going to bury it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamus View Post
    A dog doesn't need to be on a lead to meet the "under control" requirement.

    When we provide supporting firepower for the hounds of foot, many deer make a fleeting appearance. No crime is being commited, the dogs are under control and are not hounding the deer and the intentions are all lawful.

    I'd think it would be more of an issue re: who owns the land the dog is on? and... what is your intention?

    To be an offence the act also has to be "deliberate".... In Scotland.

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