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Thread: Interesting thing and the free floating myth

  1. #1

    Interesting thing and the free floating myth

    I must thank a SD member for drawing this to my attention as most know I have been sceptical about the free floating barrel "mantra as I call it" for quite some time. More than a few years in fact and now thanks to the same SD member I find that I am far from alone and amongst the ranks of those who question it are some people involved in serious precision shooting.

    The "System" is really no more than an adjustable pressure point. It's adjustable for position not pressure and like some barrel tuners that the Bench Rest crowd have been playing with it "tunes" the barrel harmonics or OBT point so the bullet leaves the muzzle at the best most stationary and stable position.

    http://www.rifle-accuracy.com/sscutaway.htm

    Now unlike those horrid doughnut barrel tuners that I have seen photos of and unlike the BOSS system which tunes the harmonics in a slightly different way this system is not seen at all once fitted that is apart from the adjusting hole and two small screws holding it in place in the fore stock.

    Now having read about it last night. Giving it some thought I wondered if it would fit into a wooden stock. Some reading and searching their site this morning it seems if the fore stock is deep enough yes. Only plastic or foam filled stocks are not adaptable. So it got me thinking.


    Now I happen to own a brand new stock for a Parker-Hale M84 cadet rifle now I realise that the M84 is slightly different to the normal P-H Mauser 98 action but as far as I am aware the actual bedding foot print is similar, something I wanted to check, and this new stock is not fully finished in the inletting. So I went to get it to take a few measurements...................................... .......... Ahhh I found a targetised P14/P-17 stock and a horrible single shot target stock for the same P-14/P-17 action that were acquired for a possible project.

    However there is no sign of the M84 stock it seems it joined the new No4 Enfield stock set and the spare take off BSA 12/15 stock set and Lee Enfield butts that were taken into custody . This must be the only place where one needs a licence to possess a wooden rifle stock!

    OH WELL BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD.

    The system looks like an interesting idea and capable of giving quite remarkable results ............................................ that is the claim. Perhaps a bit more digging is required?

  2. #2
    My Ruger no1 has something similar fitted to it (a retro fit prior to me buying it) slightly different reasons for it on the ruger something todo with the uncontrolled harmonics caused by the exposed spring and arm.
    It seems to work on mine as it is usually sub MOA with home loads, however I cannot use a bipod on it.
    There is a website for accurizing the no1s, varminthuntinginternational.com I think and it explains in great depth how it works, But basicly it alters the harmonics as you stated in your OP.
    Might be worth a read if you are planning on having a go,
    sinbad
    I wish I was half the hunter my dog thinks I am

  3. #3
    Hi kevin, have you no news on your ongoing saga with the higher powers?
    pm me if you would rather, or tell me to bog off for been nosey.
    regards john

  4. #4
    Can someone show me which Force upon firing a cartridge makes an up, down, left or right movement?
    A cartridge is symetrical, F is symetrical, even the rotation which leads to torque.
    Any movement of the barrel other than rearing backwards or twisting is down to bad design of stock/rifle
    or the way the recoil is countered.
    I think that is where one should start.
    edi

  5. #5
    Ejg,

    The lateral and vertical displacements, and hence forces, are secondary forces rather than primary and are set up by the compression and intertial forces during the firing cycle.

    Material variances and the recoil vector being on a different plane to the dynamic centre of gravtiy of the rifle also play a part in the propagation of these resultant forces.

    The pressure point is just another form of dampening, it can work well on rifle systems that need it but the benchrest guys don't use it becasue it adds another variable, it's better for them to increase the dampening by putting more mass in the barrel, for a variety of reasons.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ejg View Post
    Can someone show me which Force upon firing a cartridge makes an up, down, left or right movement?
    I've got to say I don't get this harmonic thing either. I've never read up on it, to be fair, on the rather flawed basis that it sounds like total rubbish to me and an excuse to sell things etc.

    Is there any peer reviewed real science on the subject because now that I review my reasons for writing it off as junk they seem rather weak and it does seem likely that a barrel with "ring" but I would need to see the numbers to convince me this impacts upon accuracy or point of impact or anything else that might matter to me.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Grandhubert View Post
    Ejg,

    The lateral and vertical displacements, and hence forces, are secondary forces rather than primary and are set up by the compression and intertial forces during the firing cycle.

    Material variances and the recoil vector being on a different plane to the dynamic centre of gravtiy of the rifle also play a part in the propagation of these resultant forces.

    The pressure point is just another form of dampening, it can work well on rifle systems that need it but the benchrest guys don't use it becasue it adds another variable, it's better for them to increase the dampening by putting more mass in the barrel, for a variety of reasons.
    Of course there might be some minute forces at play but primary I'd say it is like you also mentioned the centre of gravity being off line.
    Best would be to have a pressure point all the way round the barrel...but that would be similar to a thicker barrel...
    edi

  8. #8
    Actually the sine wave that even a free floating unsupported barrel makes is well documented. May I suggest you consult a few publications on the subject. Norma the ammunition maker addressed this very thing in an ammunition booklet I have here. Sadly it's not dated and it does not look like their reprinted in in their No1 data manual, or at least in a quick flick through I did not find it, but I am sure they would most likely answer a query.

    As for bench rest shooters well perhaps they may be discovering it too.. Only time will tell.

    One reason for the steps in the Mauser military barrels is because it dampens the sine wave, some of the wave is reflected back by the sharp change of diameter. Another subject to look for is the OBT (Optimal Barrel Timing) as this covers it.

    I found the remarks really interesting an is shows just how deeply they have managed to inbed the Free floating mantra.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by www.yorkshireroestalking. View Post
    Hi kevin, have you no news on your ongoing saga with the higher powers?
    pm me if you would rather, or tell me to bog off for been nosey.
    regards john
    Me too Kev,!........... Where exactly are you (We, Collectively), with this business mate????
    (The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable.) " If I can help, I will help!." Former S.A.C.S. member!

  10. #10
    No where................................... no answers just rumours that they destroyed my stock of hand loading powders as they were dangerous explosives. Oh only about a grands worthhad just restocked from the local gun club and the newark Show. Still no answers as to the books, cleaning kits, scopes, wooden rifle stocks brass cases lead bullets my recurve bow air rifles etc nothing at all.

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