Another "is this Legal"

patrol01

Well-Known Member
Having read a resent thread regarding what I presume was an innocent question entitled “ Is this Legal “ and numerous answers being supplied , all have stimulated peoples intrest and brain matter. I have another question that I don’t really know the legal answer to.
And I would really like your input, or opinion on.
If I have an Open licence allowing myself to shoot the calibre of weapon I Own on any land I have permission to shoot over. My question is ,Lets say I Own a box standard 243, and I acquire permission to shoot over new land . But the new land has only passed by the police for lets say 223. With an open license am I allowed to shoot over that land with my 243? or am I breaking the law

Thanks in advance
 
You can shoot any land you have permission on if you have an 'open licence'. You have to decide if it is safe for you to shoot. The land only being passes for a particular caliber is only of relevance to people on restricted licence. If their caliber is of the same or lower CALIBER they are ok to shoot if not they need to request the land be assessed for their caliber and given the ok to shoot.
 
As Woodmaster says, you can shoot anywhere you have legal permission and YOU deem safe.
You are responsible for any shots you take, but this is also true if you are shooting an air rifle in the same land.
 
West Yorkshire tried this on me, while pointing guns at me,
is this land cleared for a 7mm08?
my reply, no idea, I have an open licence from north yorks, its a vally with a 300ft backstop, of course its safe.
 
I agree with Pilgrmmick, it's all on your FA certificate, if you have an "Open Ticket", that is exactly what it is, otherwise, in my view every time we go on new land we would all have to apply for the land to be approved by the local FA dept for every type of caliber, how on earth could it be (pardon the pun) policed
 
Simple answer is you have been deemed competent to decide. The difference is if you shoot on ground and a justifiable reason is there for it to be deemed unsafe wave goodbye to your fac as it goes out the door. You are in a position of trust. A 223 kills you just as dead as a 243. Your responsibility is "safe shot". Jim
 
The difference is if you shoot on ground and a justifiable reason is there for it to be deemed unsafe wave goodbye to your fac as it goes out the door.

Never heard of that one before - what would constitute a 'justifiable reason' for land to be so unsafe that an open FAC holder might be pulled up about it, presumably after the event, and lose their FAC? Even the HO Guidance states that, "it is accepted that land is not intrinsically “safe” or “unsafe”. Who would deem such land 'unsafe' - the unqualified FEOs who carry out inspections? If it was the case then it would open all kinds of possibilities for uninformed subjective opinions to be made about any land, and where would that leave us!

An unsafe shot can be made over any land - but that's a different matter.
 
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My tuppence worth of opinion...:D

Up here, in the haloed land...

We don't have "land clearance" as such. I can't even begin to fathom the thinking that might allow a 6mm centre-fire but, by logical extension, not have allowed use of a 7mm centre-fire. Like one is going to be materially more or less "dangerous" ??? Nuts!

My ticket says I may shoot my allowed quarry on land that I have permission to shoot over, from the owner of the rights to do so, or his agent or summink, and he must have permitted me to it with the class of firearms I going to do it with. Pretty straight forward.

So, up here, it comes down to the land owner to decide, apparently.

Now, if I travel South I do not expect the conditions of my FAC to suddenly become invalid. Or would they?????:eek:
 
Tamus
I luv the way you put your little spin on things

I would imagine the land owner does not decide wot size calibre the ground should be cleared for
But more like up to wot calibre he would permit you to use
Big difference

But I like the fact my licence states I am only allowed to shoot Roe with my .222 only in Scotland
But all other of my deer legal calibres allow me to shoot deer no restrictions on species or country
 
Tamus
I luv the way you put your little spin on things

I would imagine the land owner does not decide wot size calibre the ground should be cleared for
But more like up to wot calibre he would permit you to use
Big difference

But I like the fact my licence states I am only allowed to shoot Roe with my .222 only in Scotland
But all other of my deer legal calibres allow me to shoot deer no restrictions on species or country



I've "allowed" loads of different calibres/cartridges to be used on my land, in full compliance with the shooter's FAC conditions.

And... my land has no "land clearance". However, I own several rifles up to and including .30-06. My licensing department allow me my ticket with use on my own land both explicitly given and accepted as "good reason" and down the years none of my FEO's has had a clue about the actual extent of this land, other than its total acreage. Last renewal I didn't even have my cabinets inspected. Just a quick check of the various serial numbers of the ticketed items, a brief natter about the weather or whatever and goodbye! Less than 15 minutes on the premises.

As far as I've ever been able to determine, they just don't bother with this "land clearance" thing up here. I think they may have realised safe is safe and "clearance" is just irrelevant. I'm not sure why it's been decided it's such a necessary thing down South.
 
With an open certificate you can shoot any calibre your FAC allows you to shoot, on land which is not known to the police, on land that they have only cleared for rimfire under closed ticket holders conditions and on land that the police would deem unsafe for any calibre under closed conditions but only if you have lawful permission.

Ian.
 
Even the HO Guidance states that, "it is accepted that land is not intrinsically “safe” or “unsafe”. Who would deem such land 'unsafe' - the unqualified FEOs who carry out inspections? If it was the case then it would open all kinds of possibilities for uninformed subjective opinions to be made about any land, and where would that leave us!

An unsafe shot can be made over any land - but that's a different matter.
Unfortunately as the current Firearms Act stands it is quite lawful for a Chief of Police to add petty conditions to a FAC that are unduly restrictive, nonsensical or plain ridiculous without fear of Judicial appeal or review (see HO guidance). atb Tim
 
Tamus
I luv the way you put your little spin on things

I would imagine the land owner does not decide wot size calibre the ground should be cleared for
But more like up to wot calibre he would permit you to use
Big difference

But I like the fact my licence states I am only allowed to shoot Roe with my .222 only in Scotland
But all other of my deer legal calibres allow me to shoot deer no restrictions on species or country

Does that mean you're not allowed to shoot the little deer species with it in England then?

I thought they changed the law to allow shooting of bambettes with .222 and other sensible .22 centre-fires... Or is it just you? :confused:

And... who's going to revoke your license just because of an outdated condition? .... Even just the thought of that seems very unfair to me.
 
Simple answer is you have been deemed competent to decide. The difference is if you shoot on ground and a justifiable reason is there for it to be deemed unsafe wave goodbye to your fac as it goes out the door. You are in a position of trust. A 223 kills you just as dead as a 243. Your responsibility is "safe shot". Jim

If one were to have a "closed cert" and took a shot "and a justifiable reason is there for it to be deemed unsafe" you would be facing exactly the same consequences as a person who took that shot on an open certificate. When a person starts out with a closed certificate, the police are not taking any responsibility from you at all, they are just putting a restriction on where you can shoot.

The conditions are farcical and have, (I think) very little impact on public safety. My .22-250 is conditioned for fox and vermin. I asked for deer to be added so that I can shoot (with the right bullet) a Munty if the opportunity arises. Now you would think that this is where "any other lawful quarry" or "small deer as defined..." would come in useful, but it came back with just Muntjac added. So I can't shoot a Roe in Scotland or a CWD. In reality its no real bother, but why the pointless restrictions?
 
In reality its no real bother, but why the pointless restrictions?
Because Parliament delegated the power to Chiefs of Police to impose additional conditions and without fear of judicial review they are exercising those powers! atb Tim
 
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TB

'Conditions' can be challenged by judicial review; the reason nobody does is that it is too expensive and probably a waste of time.

Frank
 
TB

'Conditions' can be challenged by judicial review; the reason nobody does is that it is too expensive and probably a waste of time.

Frank
I thought that this was covered by HO guidance where somebody contested the additional conditions and it was determined that they could not be appealed. atb Tim

Update: Just looked at HO guidance again Frank, you are quite right:-

Under section 44
of the 1968 Act an appeal lies to the Crown
Court in England and Wales, or to the
Sheriff in Scotland, in accordance with
Schedule 5 of the 1968 Act. There is no
statutory right of appeal against certificate
conditions (Buckland v Cambridgeshire
Constabulary) although unreasonable additions
may be challenged by way of Judicial Review.
 
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Tom

Yes
I do hav muntjac and CWD for the .222 And also fox
But in Scotland I can only use the .222 for roe

But roe is the only deer mentioned that which according to the condition placed on it that I can only shoot in a certain country
No restrictions on the 30-06 or any of my deer legal calibres
May be when I am using my .222 they think I don't know the law or something...lol

As for land permission it seems it is just a paperwork exercise that has to be justified
As not very often do they do a proper land check from my experiences of it all
I've had FEO's ring me about if I had given permission for certain calibres and what I thought about the calibre to which the application applies to
Other FEO's hav done a drive by just to justify knowing something about the ground
And the favourite is to look at the OS map to confirm the location and if it is suitable
I posted a vid a few years ago of a piece of ground deemed suitable for a .300winmag for muntjac and fox
Class vid it was too
I will see if I can dig it out
 
As for land permission it seems it is just a paperwork exercise that has to be justified
As not very often do they do a proper land check from my experiences of it all

I had some land cleared for up to .308 (previously just up to .22RF) over the telephone.

:D
 
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