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Thread: Even more .22LR questions...

  1. #1

    Even more .22LR questions...

    Thanks for all the advice in the past. Here's a couple more queries:

    Firstly, I don't know if this is an ammo question or a gun cleaning question, but I've noticed recently, when punching paper targets, that a few shots have landed a good 8 inches below the point of aim, despite the rest of the group being good. This has happened 3 or 4 times, and the last time (last night) I actually saw the flight of the bullet through the scope, following a strange "S" shaped path before hitting way below target. These have all been from the same batch of ammo (remmington hollow point subs), but, interestingly, have also all been the first shot of the session. So, is this an ammo fault, or dirty barrel, or what?

    Next thing: Thanks to Dave (223) my scope is nicely zeroed at 50 yards, and I'm now able to consistently place groups in a 1 inch target at that range (with the exception of the odd-balls, as described above). Using the Hawke software, I've worked out the intervals for the dots in the reticle, the first being 65 yards. At that range the group is a bit bigger (2.5", on average), but still a dead rabbit! However, moving up to the next dot (80 yards) I'm lucky if I can get them all into a 5" circle. They're also noticabley all landing to the right of the point of aim at that distance. Given that the scope appears bang on at 50 yards, should I tweak the windage adjustment to correct what's happening at 80 yards, or just do more practice to tighten the group at longer ranges?

    Also can anyone give me any tips on estimating range in the field? Was out rabbiting a couple of night ago, having done a recce of the land first. Set myself up at a known 50 yards from a hedge end, with a bank behind, and every bunny that came out onto that bank was a dead one! However, after a while I noticed rabbits coming out to feed at the other end of the hedge, at right angles too my position. I hadn't measured this distance beforehand, so was trying to guess range, and missed all shots.

    Also, can someone please explain, in laymans terms, the relative merits (or otherwise) of HV .22LR ammunition, as opposed to standard subs.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Hi, Have you checked the moderator is it still on tight ? You will sometimes get underloaded/
    overloaded rounds in .22 most noticeable by noise ,I would also say that maybe your rifle
    is not grouping as tight as it can maybe try some winchester or eley subs, I usually get 1/2
    inch groups @ 60 with winchesters 1 inch at 85 yards, the rifle is cleaned every 500 rounds.

  3. #3
    22 RF can be a bit of a moving feast.

    It is surprisingly common to find variation with 22 RF ammo. Take with a pinch of salt, but I found Remington very variable and stopped using it a number of years ago - be clear that was just my findings.

    Frequently the report was noticeably different between shots - did you experience anything like that?

    Would suspect if your set up is printing the majority of rounds ok, then issue lies with the ammo. Assuming not doing anything radically different between shots - eg resting or gripping barrel direct.

    Range estimation - a good guide ( experience aside ) is to pick a magnification on your scope and get used to the sight picture on a bunny. Obviously rabbits come in various sizes, but you can rapidly build up a mental picture of what a 40 yd rabbit looks like - if it seems bigger it could be closer and smaller further away. Depending upon reticule style you may find measuring points on the cross hairs - eg distance from centre to start of thicker part of the arm.

    As said, 22 RF ammo is even more of a law unto itself than centre fire. The 22 RF bullet is rather strange as the design contains a number of features that are not conducive to good accuracy. The fact that most of it is so good is a testament to the research that has gone into it over the years.

    In general HV ammo tends to be less accurate than standard or subsonic ammo. Sometimes this is down to the rifling and chamber dimensions, but the key is the sound barrier. It is generally accepted that there is a zone of instability as an object approaches the sound barrier - effectively trying to push air out of the way, it gets compressed. Standard rounds are at or near 1100 fps - any instability is close to the muzzle and the bullet flight is self stabilising to an extent. Subsonics dont have the issue.

    HV rounds hit it twice - going through the first time and dropping back down range.

    The heeled design of the 22 does little to assist.

    Some rifles will shoot them well, some dont.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn71 View Post
    Hi, Have you checked the moderator is it still on tight ? You will sometimes get underloaded/
    overloaded rounds in .22 most noticeable by noise ,I would also say that maybe your rifle
    is not grouping as tight as it can maybe try some winchester or eley subs, I usually get 1/2
    inch groups @ 60 with winchesters 1 inch at 85 yards, the rifle is cleaned every 500 rounds.
    I was using the remmington for practice because they're cheaper. Have also got win subs, which I found too "bouncy" on hard ground, and also got CCI segmented HPs, which are the bees knees, I think.

    The rifle barrel did look a bit dirty after the last session, so perhaps it's due a clean, but a lot of folk on here have said: "never clean a .22 rimfire", so I wasn't sure what to do for the best.

    When I can get 1" groups at 85 yards I will be very happy. What's the secret?

  5. #5
    Hello VSS, a rifle will choose its own ammunition,So bear this in mind irrespective of cost ( my krico .22lr groups best and most consistently with Eley subs ) .Also my 22lr seems to group very badly if I clean it taking 30-40 rounds to get it grouping correctly again ! where as my .17 HMR needs cleaning very regularly or the grouping opens up,So the opposite to my .22.

    My advice wouid be buy small amounts of different ammo and try them all,and find which suits your rifle the best even if its the most expensive and then stick to it.

    regarding the HV stuff if you use this this you will be shooting flatter and effectively longer because the rounds trajectory wont be as loopy as using subs BUT you will give away your stealthly approach.

    I use subs only through my .22 and only out to 80 yards and if I am out after the bunnies I take HMR aswell and shoot out to 200 yards ( with no wind ) with that.

    cheers Lee

  6. #6
    What rifle have you got and what is its history, new or s/h/

    I have a sake varmint that likes both eley and winchester subs and a marlin that hates eley but likes winchester, first all over the place second half inch groups.
    I my opinion, you do not need to clean a rf. so long as you have clean barrel, no rust crud etc, you will not need to clean it.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by VSS View Post
    I was using the remmington for practice because they're cheaper. Have also got win subs, which I found too "bouncy" on hard ground, and also got CCI segmented HPs, which are the bees knees, I think.

    The rifle barrel did look a bit dirty after the last session, so perhaps it's due a clean, but a lot of folk on here have said: "never clean a .22 rimfire", so I wasn't sure what to do for the best.

    When I can get 1" groups at 85 yards I will be very happy. What's the secret?
    No major secret my rifle(shortened sako finfire) just loves winchesters and has always shot tight groups
    i tried cci segmented hp's and they also grouped well but sometimes got 3 small ricochet's instead of
    1 big 1 The rifle has had 10-15000 rounds through it and i clean every 500 more to get rid of the
    greasy bullet residue .

  8. #8
    I use CCI segmented for everything and for paper bashing after zero check I turn to the good old reliable eley subs, I run a pull through everytime I use the .22 to keep the bore tidy and give it a good scrub out every five hundred rounds and re zero as required.

    Practice is the thing, easy enough to get the distance right, when I have a regular spot to clear rabbits instead of using the range finder before starting to shoot place some markers out like little white posts and 25 , 50, 75 and a 100 yds to help you guide for a little elevation that may be required, you can when rehearsed head shoot rabbits at a 100 with ease with a .22 LR CCI are pretty quick off the mark and breakup, good reason to use them, I have a sako quad and a CZ in .22 and they both shoot brilliantly

    Preparation is the key, clean zeroed rifle, good ammo and sight , steady shooting and comfortable position and practice, it will come right and from the wee .22 you will get more rabbits in the bag and enjoy the evening out as well

    ATB
    Phil

  9. #9
    My 5-cents worth.

    Most good 22LR ammo has less standard deviation than good factory CF ammo, and that can go for good HV ammo as well. Variations that cause an 8" drop are far from something you take in stride. I shoot tens of thousands of rounds of different 22LR ammo a year and any ammo that dropped a round 8" out would be considered a bad lot. For what it's worth, Remington 22 Subs were the absolute worst I tested in a trial in 2005 giving 145 ft/sec average spread over 200 rounds tested from two different lots. I have had Standard Deviations less than 15 fps from high speed ammo, and even the worst Lot of CCI Blazer HV (which is normally pretty decent for cheap ammo) tested recently had a Standard Deviation of just 20 fps. Good 22LR ammo is very accurate. Lapua Match will shoot one hole at 50M from a rifle that likes it. Find a CF that will do that and you will have a good weapon.

    High velocity ammo will not shoot with match .22 ammo from most guns but as mentioned, it depends on the gun. Still it can be very accurate, despite it's trans-sonic escapades. I have shot so many sub MOA groups at 100 yards that I've quit using subs or standard velocity ammo past. We shoot "Practical .22 Rifle" here which is mostly cold-bore shots over previously unspecified distances out to 300 yards. I use HV ammo.

    Which brings up range estimation. There are tricks you can use -mil dots and the like- or measuring your reticle against a known object at known distances but, as mentioned, experience is the #1 teacher. Start close with a 50 yard zero and shoot at any distance from 10 yards to 100 yards. Really good practice is to find a flat area and shoot at a golf ball, skipping it out farther and farther with each shot. You'll learn hold under and hold over quickly.

    As to the funny cork screw trajectory you witnessed: It's from a ballistic phenomenon called precession (you can look it up and it will explain what you see) and is normal. You just see it if the light is right and/ or the velocity slow enough.

    Last tip. Don't clean the bore of your rifle. Clean the bolt and breech but leave bore alone. It really screws with accuracy when you clean a .22LR.~Muir
    Last edited by Muir; 31-05-2012 at 00:26.

  10. #10
    All good stuff from Muir.
    I first started with winchester subs through my sako quad and they where (and still are) an excellent round with great accuracy.
    I went over to CCI's and my rifle hated them. Not as accurate as the winchesters and would very often stick in the breach if not shot first. I went on to lapua but they are expensive, albeit very accurate then finally settled on Eley subs which to my mind are identical to the lapua rounds.
    With Eley subs I expect to shoot sub 1" at 70 yards.
    The only thing I've ever cleaned on my .22 barrel is the mod. The bolt and breach get cleaned regularly as pointed out by muir.
    I've tried the HV .22 CCI rounds but decided to stay with the .17HMR for longer stuff as it was as much messing about rezeroing with the HV's as it was to switch the barrel and use the HMR.
    Judging distance for me takes two learning curves...one for daylight and one for nighttime shooting. Judging distance at night is very difficult until you get used to the size of certain targets at a given magnification.
    Keep practising and settle on a make that gives consistent results.
    Below is a link to my website.
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