Lead free bullets

User00023

Well-Known Member
Has anybody used lead free bullets in the field? For the past eighteen months or so I have been using Sako loaded 165gn Barnes Triple X rounds in .308 on everything from muntjac to reds and found them to be much 'cleaner' than the more usual lead rounds. Grouping on the range is invariably one inch or less at 100yds with even a couple of 3-shot clover leaves. I see Federal also offer their own loading of the Triple X while Winchester have just launched their own version, the E-tip. I have a few observations I am happy to share but thought it might be useful to kick off the conversation by inviting a few comments from other users. Any copper converts out there?
 
I have some home loads in .270 130gr with the Barnes X bullet, they are very accurate, but have yet to shoot a deer full stop so cannot coment on there use. Have read about them on various places and the Americans seem to like them, but some have questions about expansion on soft skinned animals some uk replies were unfavorable, mentioning little expansion. So I would be pleased to hear your experiences of these hollow points compared to lead etc.
Tom
 
I suppose the most obvious difference is the almost complete lack of fragmentation. I once went through a box of Winchester soft points and must have produced some of the worst carcasses of my career. The jacket appeared to have a star crimp around the nose and the consequences were all too obvious. Putting one of those into the shoulder of a muntjac made a real mess and I resolved to search for something more discreet.

With the Barnes, the entry point is invariably just a pinprick and often quite difficult to find. This would tend to support the theory that they might not expand sufficiently on thinner skinned animals. Seemingly, this attribute also translates into a less visible bullet strike. One observer actually thought I had missed a roe buck until it ran on and revealed the more obvious consequence on its opposite flank! So, maybe a later expansion than a lead bullet but the job was just as well done further in where it really mattered; and there again the effects seem to be different but equally fatal to those seen with lead.
 
Only time I had americans over who used Barnes X bullets it was a mess.
No expansion and red deer running off and dying about a mile away.

That was about 20 years ago. I believe they started to use them on Rhum when the culling started in earnest a few years later, and they had similar problems as I knew one of the stalkers, and he questioned me about the clients who has used them.

In Africa I have heard good reports about them, but personally I wouldnt use them on british deer.

Thats my experience of them, but I know some folk who will disagree ;)
 
Sikamalc, that sort of experience would be enough to warn anybody away from them, but I'm tempted to ask whether the mess might have started with the person pulling the trigger.

Amongst the deer I have taken with them was a fully grown lowland red hind at 120 yds with a clean boiler room shot and she just turned on the spot, sat down then went over. Another hind was hit smack on the button and barely made 20yds before she went over. A sika stag went down cleanly at a similar distance. In all cases there was no question of the bullet not expanding. I wonder if Barnes have changed the composition or structure in some way since your unfortunate experience?
 
I seem to remember some discussion of this on AR and there was some suggestion that the cavity which promotes expansion may not have been as large, or fully formed, in some of the Barnes bullets. It was suggested this was a production problem. There were also some who suggested that it was possible for the cavity to become plugged with skin, hair or the like and so prevent expansion. Some suggested that this is why there is now a version of this bullet with a plastic tip as it would initiate expansion and would also prevent the cavity becoming plugged. There were certainly a number of people posting who had bad experiences with the Barnes bullets but, equally, there were many posters who had never had a failure.

Despite this I'm sort of put off by the potential for failure, especially when the simple exposed lead tip bullet works so well on our deer. However, if you want to avoid lead, and that does seem an attractive option, then Barnes are currently one of the few options.

I suspect, with some states in the US banning lead, that we might not be long before we had a considerable choice of lead free bullets and that can only be a good thing as it will drive the technology (and it doesn't seem complicated to me) forwards and give us all more options.
 
Did I say Triple X? I meant Triple Shock. That or TSX. DOH!!!!
It would appear that the opinion is divided between those who like them and those who couldn't give a 4X about a TSX.

Given that the expansion problem has been overcome I suppose the main attraction is weight retention. I did experiment with the more traditional Norma Alaska 180gn for a while and found, as you might expect, that these lumbering bricks were much less destructive than lighter loads - but what an expensive experiment that was!!!!
 
Has anyone considered what happens to these bullets that don't fragment!
where do they go once they have exited the deer, being deflected by bone intact still doing xxxxx amount of fps.
Now you try to explain to your flo that it was a safe shot with a good back stop when he's holding a spent bullet head that someone has found that clattered of his roof or wall...
Was it not one of the reasons why fmj's were restricted!

just a thought

griff
 
Griff, that's a good point and well made.

Cleary, as responsible stalkers, our objective should always be to use the tool most suited to the job. As you rightly point out, FMJs are not acceptable due to their robust construction. Likewise, I would suggest, highly frangible rounds are equally unacceptable, but for a quite different set of reasons. Clearly we should be looking for something between these two extremes.

While most if not all manufacturers publish energy and velocity data, might it not be instructive if a standard energy transfer value was made available? Say a product of the measurement of bullet velocity against retained weight on exiting a block of balistic gelatine at 100yds? Would I be correct in suggesting that such a feature might further assist us in our choice of ammunition?
 
Just a thought, but in the Balkans (Croatia etc), where they often have lines of up to 25 or more clients strung out along up to a couple of kilometers, and where you can use semi-auto rifles and shotguns chucking anything from premium rifle bullets to slugs into dense forest in the face of the beaters (no heirarchy suggested there, honest ;) ), they won't even let you out of the truck with all copper rounds.
Like I said, just a thought.
 
over the last 18months or so since being a member on SD
i hav follwed the copper bullets threads with interest, like i hav on other forumns
as i hav never tried them, i can't comment

but
and a big BUT

Mark H has kindly offered to load me a few copper bullets to try for my 30-06
once i hav picked these up and used them, i will certainly post the results
but it does look to me from the info and results others hav had, they are a lot different to yester-years bullets that every one seems to comment on
so i will reserve judgement on it for now
ATB
stone
 
Iwrch

I have been using the 85 gr Barnes TSX for the past 14mts in my girly .243. I have so far shot 12 deer with them and only recovered 1 bullet .

all my deer are fallow and were shot at 100-240m .

I have shot these bullets into test media(wet Argos and phone books ) and got excellent expansion and weight retention 100% with the TSX, the best weight retention from a standard type bullet from either test media or deer is 80% that was a partition bullet.

I have found that with these bullets you don’t get a lot of bruising around the entry or exit wound in fact almost none on some deer shot.

the only bullet I recovered from a deer was from a very large fallow buck shot at 160m , the bullet went through the front shoulder blade clipped the vertebrae broke the offside shoulder blade then turned 90 deg travelled down the body breaking three ribs and lodged under the offside skin , the only time I have heard of a bullet doing something like this was on the film JFK with the "magic bullet". anyway the recovered bullet retained 100% or its original weight it expanded from 6mm-14.7mm and was the classic Barnes flower petal shape . I measured the distance the bullet had travelled within the deer and it was 30" of going through meat bone etc .

all the other deer shot had good exit wound from H/L ,neck or shoulder shots the bullets all expanded and usually left a 1.5-2" exit wound (depends on where deer was shot)

I have shot the odd fox with the bullets to see if they expand on thin skinned animals and they seem to work ok leaving good exit wounds.

my last four deer were shot with 100gr gamekings as I was out of TSX bullets , the deer were shot at 110-160m two bullets left exit hole two lodged just under the offside skin .

the two recovered bullets had jacket core separation and retained 67% & 73% of original weight there was a lot more bruising and meat damage but the deer did not die any quicker with the 100gr than the 85gr TSX and all were down either to the shot or within 5 seconds.

I like the TSX in the girly .243 (I have more bullets now) as you get good penetration,hard hitting ,flat shooting and no lead poisoning I have heard horror stories of these bullets not expanding , so I check the HP on all bullets before reloading with a small drill bit to make sure the cavity is clear my reloads are shooting just over an inch @200m .

to add something to the pot the best bullet i have found for putting fallow deer down is a Seirra 85gr HPBT with deer shot H/L . i have never had one take a step they just go downlike they have been switched off. you might get some form of exit wound on 50% of the deer this will be from a small 1" to a 4.5"crater . on gralloching this bullet will turn the insides to mush . i wouldnt like to shoot a big buck through the shoulder wth these bullets

regards..........neil
 
geoshot

What reason do they give in the Balkans for prohibiting copper rounds? Is it ricochet or might it be a foresters concern over his sawing equipment? Presumably they think themselves fast enough on their feet to dodge the occasional wayward slug? :lol:
 
stone - Good luck with your loading. I look forward to reading your observations.

griffshrek - Great post! It appears we have come to the same conclusions and encouraging to see that the Barnes has a uniform performance in both .243 and .308. It will be intersting to see how stone gets on with his .30-06. Checking the cavity is an excellent idea and one that I will certainly adopt in future.
 
I have just been informed that all monometal bullets are banned from military ranges.. because of richocet's is this true?


regards
griff
 
I have been using barnes XXX /TSX for about 4-5 years. I have shot 5 of 6 species of deer with them, still not got a CWD! :(

I can say that I have not had a problem shooting hand bag size Muntjac under my feet or Massive lowland Red stags or hinds on the hill or Sika on the coast and fallow on the beans.

It works well for me in my 6.5X55 with a 120 grain bullet, sub inch groups, expands well no problems for me! :lol:

I think Sweden has banned lead bullets, not sure it will be too long before its banned every where?

The only criticism I would have is the cost here in the U.K.!
 
Hi Iwrch,
In most of the Balkans they allow just about anything but get scared with all copper bullets.
Maybe it's because of their ultimate penetration, no stopping them in fact, even breneke slugs ricochet less, even after going straight through a keiler.
That and copper kills just about all plants ever evolved.
You want healthy trees?
Don't fill them full of copper, copper does more damage than deer.
ATB
G
 
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