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Thread: Can my son carry my rifle?

  1. #1

    Can my son carry my rifle?

    Sorry if this sounds like a silly question but I am a bit confused about the law and young people. I know he may not shoot a firearm until he has a fac (he is 13) but can he carry my rifle with me present or does this make him in possesion?
    Any help with this is much appreciated by me and my sore back!

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by liongeorge View Post
    Sorry if this sounds like a silly question but I am a bit confused about the law and young people. I know he may not shoot a firearm until he has a fac (he is 13) but can he carry my rifle with me present or does this make him in possesion?
    Any help with this is much appreciated by me and my sore back!
    See paragraph 6.30 of the HO Guidance "Gun bearers exemption" I am not sure if your son's age will create a problem. atb Tim

  3. #3
    As you are there with him, and he is not going to fire the rifle, I can't see anything in law that would prevent him carrying the rifle. The only problem I could foresee is that if he's carrying it, he'll sure as heck want to shoot it!

  4. #4
    just exactly who is going to enforce this out in the wilds of the country?

    its good to know your law but I think sometimes we do make a rod for our own backs by helping the authorities come up with overly precious rules!
    what if you are crossing a fence with a firearm and your son is there to assist, does best practice overule firearms law or vice versa?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by liongeorge View Post
    Sorry if this sounds like a silly question but I am a bit confused about the law and young people. I know he may not shoot a firearm until he has a fac (he is 13) but can he carry my rifle with me present or does this make him in possesion?
    Any help with this is much appreciated by me and my sore back!
    my understanding of this situation lies in FA Act 1968 sec 11 (1) A PERSON CARRYING A FIREARM, OR AMMUNITION BELONGING TO ANOTHER PERSON HOLDING A CERTIFICATE UNDER THIS ACT MAY, WITHOUT HIMSELF HOLDING SUCH A CERTIFICATE, HAVE IN HIS POSSESSION THAT FIREARM, OR AMMUNITION UNDER INSTRUCTION FROM, AND FOR THE USE OF, THAT OTHER PERSON FOR SPORTING PURPOSES ONLY. I my view if your son is with you (by your very side, with an unloaded weapon and not carrying ammunition for said weapon) you have not parted with POSSESSION of the firearm, and therefore not in breach of FA Act 1968 sec 24 2 (b). Looking at the practical view, would the Police/CPS want to prosecute such a case as this, for once both you and your son come out of your home, and before, you both become in joint possession of the weapon, and ammunition. There is well established case law on possession (drugs/firearms, & knives to cite but a few)on this point, which have resulted in both prosecution, and a discontinued case by the Police/CPS

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by patrickt View Post
    There is well established case law on illegal possession (drugs/firearms, & knives to cite but a few)on this point, which have resulted in both prosecution, and a discontinued case by the Police/CPS
    major difference between proving ownership and or possession of illegal firearms and those held legally

  7. #7
    Patrick,

    That section (1) is quoted out of context:-


    Firearms Act 1968 Section 11 Sports, athletics and other approved activities

    (1)A person carrying a firearm or ammunition belonging to another person holding a certificate under this Act may, without himself holding such a certificate, have in his possession that firearm or ammunition under instructions from, and for the use of, that other person for sporting purposes only.

    (4) Any person may, without holding a certificate, use any such rifle and ammunition at such a range or gallery (a miniature rifle range or shooting gallery at which no firearms are used other than air weapons or miniature rifles not exceeding 23 inch calibre);

    (5)A person may, without holding a shot gun certificate, borrow a shot gun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier's presence.

    (6)A person may, without holding a shot gun certificate, use a shot gun at a time and place approved for shooting at artificial targets by the chief officer of police for the area in which that place is situated.



    (1) and (4) seem to be specific exemptions enabling members of Home Office Approved Clubs to use the Club's and other member's firearms without holding an FAC for them. I don't know whether these can be extended to fieldsports, but can't find the statutory definition of 'approved activities' nor can I locate the full text of the Act..... just these snippets which appear to be relevant here. The problem with all these queries is that the enabling legislation is so old, and has been amended so many times by successive Firearms Acts and Case Law that the original wording doesn't help much.
    If I'm going to be accused of it then it's just as well I did it.

  8. #8
    Lefty, I'm not sure how (1) is in any way limited to HO approved clubs.

    As far as I'm aware, deer stalking is classified as sport shooting, and so section 1 would apply.

    You also seem to have missed out some of the wording for section 4. It applies to a miniature "gallery" range, such as those you might see at a fair, not to a HO approved club in any way. It is generally considered that someone who is a member of the guild of showmen can purchase .22LR rifles and ammunition for use in a miniature range without holding a certificate.

    The full wording of FA act 1968 (as amended) S.11 Para 4 is as follows:-

    (4) A person conducting or carrying on a miniature rifle range (whether for a rifle club or otherwise) or shooting gallery at which no firearms are used other than air weapons or miniature rifles not exceeding 23 inch calibre may, without holding a certificate, have in his possession, or purchase or acquire, such miniature rifles and ammunition suitable therefor; and any person may, without holding a certificate, use any such rifle and ammunition at such a range or gallery.

    The full text of the act is at the link below (a google search normally brings up the Government site that has all legislation)

    Firearms act 1968 (as amended)
    Last edited by matt_hooks; 20-06-2012 at 22:30.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by bewsher500 View Post
    major difference between proving ownership and or possession of illegal firearms and those held legally
    Thanks for the observation bewsher500, that said you may be the lawful owner of something, but still be in possession of something that is illegal to possess, recent case law of Rehman (an english case) & (???escapes my mind at present) both held weapons & or ammunition, one was given 7 years, his appeal failed, and the the elderly lady in Scotland (a fine country) had her sentence reduced to 3 years after an appeal

    PS did I ever tell you that a Patrick Turnbull was the High Sheriff of Edinburgh in the 1800's !!!, no need to genuflect B500
    Last edited by patrickt; 21-06-2012 at 07:38. Reason: letter missed out

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by patrickt View Post
    Thanks for the observation bewsher500, that said you may be the lawful owner of something, but still be in possession of something that is illegal to possess, recent case law of Rehman (an english case) & (???escapes my mind at present) both held weapons & or ammunition, one was given 7 years, his appeal failed, and the the elderly lady in Scotland (a fine country) had her sentence reduced to 3 years after an appeal

    PS did I ever tell you that a Patrick Turnbull was the High Sheriff of Edinburgh in the 1800's !!!, no need to genuflect B500
    but that is not relevant in this situation, both those cases involve prosecution of individuals for illegally possessing unregistered and illegal firearms. neither owned nor possessed legally.
    Rehman fired a semi auto at a policeman during a riot in Birmingham! hardly the same ball park.
    Gail Cochrane rather foolishly tried to provide an alibi for her criminal son who had failed to attend court and had a semi auto pistol under her mattress. Sorry but "family heirloom my ass". Who keeps a family heirloom under their mattress?!
    the whole case smells.
    if the police attended the house solely with an arrest warrant for her son, why the detailed search of the house, did they expect to find him under the mattress?

    The guns in this situation are legally owned and possessed buy the FAC holder, legal authority to hold, possess and own.
    The owner has given neither authority to use or own by having someone else carry them. No ammunition has been provided and he is merely providing carriage.
    pushing this into a court and lawyer would argue that whilst in close proximity he still has control of the firearm, as per the estate rifle clause, shooting ground clause etc

    I dont think they have a "genuflect smiley" will this do:

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