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Thread: loan of a rifle

  1. #1

    loan of a rifle

    I'm hoping for a yes or no answer here.

    Is it legal for me to allow a non licence holder to fire my rifle under my close supervision?

    The rifle is not held by me as an "estate rifle", simply held by me on my FAC.

    All the normal stuff is taken care of i.e. private land over which I have permission to shoot.

    Cheers,

    Buckup.

  2. #2
    yes, providing they are over 14

  3. #3
    This pretty much says it all, so YES

    Firearms Law Guidance to the Police 2002

    Chapter 6: EXEMPTIONS FROM THE REQUIREMENT TO HOLD A CERTIFICATE

    Borrowed rifles on private premises

    6.16 Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a person to borrow a rifle from the occupier of private premises and to use it on those premises in the presence of either the occupier or their servant without holding a firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It should be noted that this gives slightly more flexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle than is permissible with the use of a shot gun as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the borrowed rifle can also be used in the presence of the servant of the occupier. However, the occupier and/or their servant must hold a firearm certificate in respect of the firearm being used, and the borrower, who must be accompanied by the certificate holder (whether it is the occupier or their servant), must comply with the conditions of the certificate.

    These may include a safekeeping requirement and, in some cases, territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the 1968 Act defines “premises” as including any land. The effect of the provision is to allow a person visiting a private estate to borrow and use a rifle without a certificate. The exemption does not extend to persons under the age of 17 or to other types of firearm. There is no notification required on the loan of a firearm under these circumstances. A borrowed rifle should not be specifically identified as such on a “keeper’s” or “landowner’s” firearm certificate. The term “in the presence of” is not defined in law but is generally interpreted as being within sight and earshot.
    Life should be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving skidding in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming WOO HOO what a ride!

  4. #4
    Thanks guys.

  5. #5
    In a rush to head out for course - always poor time to post but -

    Age - believe they must be 17/ 18 or over ( depending on FAC holder age ). Bewsher 500 is a scrupulously thorough gentleman, so '14' comment has thrown me at this time of the morning!

    Estate rifle provisions and relevant definitions of qualifying 'occupier/ servant' etc was done in depth on a thread not too long ago.

    Sorry for non-constructive post. Out door now
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  6. #6
    Buckup I don't think a simple yes or no is possible more detail is necessary but I would say that it is possible if certain conditions are met.
    It's the calibre of the shooter that counts not the calibre of the rifle.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by 8x57 View Post
    Buckup I don't think a simple yes or no is possible more detail is necessary but I would say that it is possible if certain conditions are met.
    +1. Agree with this statement. The original question is not specific enough. I suggest you talk your circumstances through with BASC. Regards JCS

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Moray Outfitting View Post
    In a rush to head out for course - always poor time to post but -

    Age - believe they must be 17/ 18 or over ( depending on FAC holder age ). Bewsher 500 is a scrupulously thorough gentleman, so '14' comment has thrown me at this time of the morning!

    Estate rifle provisions and relevant definitions of qualifying 'occupier/ servant' etc was done in depth on a thread not too long ago.

    Sorry for non-constructive post. Out door now
    Andy, beat me to it, nothing unusual about that he is of course correct, 14 years of age to obtain a FAC this does not apply to borrowed weapons which I believe is 17 in which case the certificate holder must be over 21 , if the borrower is 18 or over then the certificate holder may be any age.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by bogtrotter View Post
    Andy, beat me to it, nothing unusual about that he is of course correct, 14 years of age to obtain a FAC this does not apply to borrowed weapons which I believe is 17 in which case the certificate holder must be over 21 , if the borrower is 18 or over then the certificate holder may be any age.
    Well the problem is that the HO Guidance is contradictory in its statement in section 6 and is superceded by the Firearms Act which is Law rather than guidance.

    Actually Section 7 of the HO Guidance goes further to contradict Section 6 of the same document by making reference to the very parts of the 1968 Act that supercede it!!:

    "7.9 Section 22(2) (of the act) prohibits persons under the
    age of fourteen from having with them any
    such firearms or ammunition except in
    circumstances where they are entitled by
    virtue of sections 11(1), (3) or (4) of the 1968
    Act or section 15(1) of the 1988 Act to have
    possession of them without holding a firearm
    certificate. These include possession at rifle
    clubs, on a miniature rifle range or as a
    member of a cadet corps. Except in such
    circumstances, it is an offence under section
    24(2)(b) to part with the possession of any
    firearms or ammunition to which section 1
    applies to a person who is under the age of
    fourteen (though it is not an offence by the
    young person to receive them). "


    Section 22(1) of the 1968 Act clarifies the HO Guidance Section 6 statement to include the critical word "hire".

    "22.-(1) It is an offence for a person under the age of seventeen Acquisition
    to purchase or hire any firearm or ammunition. "

    The most relevant part is 22 -(2) of the Act:

    "(2) It is an offence for a person under the age of fourteen to
    have in his possession any firearm or ammunition to which
    section 1 of this Act applies, except in circumstances where
    under section 11(1), (3) or (4) of this Act he is entitled to have
    possession of it without holding a firearm certificate."


    the relevant exemptions are:

    "1.--(1) A person carrying a firearm or ammunition belong-
    ing to another person holding a certificate under this Act may,
    without himself holding such a certificate, have in his possession
    that firearm or ammunition under instructions from, and for the
    use of, that other person for sporting purposes only. (in this case this is the exemption)
    (2) A person may, without holding a certificate, have a fire-
    arm in his possession at an athletic meeting for the purpose of
    starting races at that meeting.
    (3) A member of a rifle club or miniature rifle club or cadet
    corps approved by the Secretary of State may, without holding
    a certificate, have in his possession a firearm and ammuni-
    tion when engaged as a member of the club or corps in, or in
    connection with, drill or target practice.
    (4) A person conducting or carrying on a miniature rifle range
    (whether for a rifle club or otherwise) or shooting gallery at
    which no firearms are used other than air weapons or miniature
    rifles not exceeding 23 inch calibre may, without holding a
    certificate, have in his possession, or purchase or acquire, such
    miniature rifles and ammunition suitable therefor ; and any
    person may, without holding a certificate, use any such rifle and
    ammunition at such a range or gallery.
    (5) A person may, without holding a shot gun certificate,
    borrow a shot gun from the occupier of private premises and use
    it on those premises in the occupier's presence.
    (6) A person may, without holding a shot gun certificate, use
    a shot gun at a time and place approved for shooting at artifi-
    cial targets by the chief officer of police for the area in which
    that place is situated. "



    The rule of being over 21 before you can loan a firearm to a person age 17 is actually in reference to shotgun use by minors
    (Appendix 4 in the HO Guidance)

    By way of contradiction the NRA actually advise:
    "An individual must be 17 or over to own a Section 1 Firearm. A younger individual can use firearms if they have a Firearms Certificate and are under supervision by the owner."


    Apply for an FAC - 14
    Borrow and firearm - 14
    Hire/Rent a firearm - 17
    Purchase or own - 17 or 18 (Sussex police say 18, NRA say 17, HO Guidance says 17!)

    It would make a mockery of the law (not for the first time) if you could hold an FAC at 14 but not borrow a rifle without one until 17.

    hope that is clear...as mud!
    Last edited by bewsher500; 23-06-2012 at 10:40.

  10. #10
    The answer is yes, it is legal (given the criteria above)

    Chapter and verse from the legislation.

    Firearms (amendment) act 1988

    Section 16
    16 Borrowed rifles on private premises.

    (1)A person of or over the age of seventeen may, without holding a firearm certificate, borrow a rifle from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the presence either of the occupier or of a servant of the occupier if—


    (a)the occupier or servant in whose presence it is used holds a firearm certificate in respect of that rifle; and


    (b)the borrower’s possession and use of it complies with any conditions as to those matters specified in the certificate.


    (2)A person who by virtue of subsection (1) above is entitled without holding a firearm certificate to borrow and use a rifle in another person’s presence may also, without holding such a certificate, purchase or acquire ammunition for use in the rifle and have it in his possession during the period for which the rifle is borrowed if—


    (a)the firearm certificate held by that other person authorises the holder to have in his possession at that time ammunition for the rifle of a quantity not less than that purchased or acquired by, and in the possession of, the borrower; and


    (b)the borrower’s possession and use of the ammunition complies with any conditions as to those matters specified in the certificate.
    The two things that often cause confusion are the "occupier or servant of occupier" requirement and the "in the presence of" bit.

    Firstly, it is considered that an occupier is a person who has the right to take game on the ground. There's some disagreement as to whether someone who shoots a few deer, free of charge, on the land under a gentlemans agreement, even with written permissions, can be said to hold any right to take game, and hence whether he can be an "occupier". Of course if you pay for the stalking then you will have a contract that states your shooting rights, and so you would be classed as an occupier.

    To be a "servant" one would normally have to be in the normal employment of the occupier. I'm not sure whether "I'm paid in rabbits/venison" would make you a servant (and the tax man might have a few words to say about that sort of payment in kind)

    As for "in the presence of" it would appear to be interpreted by the courts as "within sight and earshot". So you don't have to be standing over them. This would seem pretty pointless, as you can hardly affect the safety of the situation if you are fifty yards away, but that's how the learned judges have interpreted this in the past.

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