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Thread: Increase in legally held Firearms

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member tartinjock's Avatar
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    Increase in legally held Firearms

    With those who run this country looking for any reason to get that vote, the issue of firearms will always be high on there agenda.

    With figures published showing that there are now nearly double the amount of firearms held by private individuals, with the government looking to reduce this through various ideas, do you think that they are releasing the truth behind firearms held?

    The reasoning being that moderators have to be on your FAC, this accounting for statistics towards "Firearms Held", so the reality being that if on a ratio of 3 firearms to 2 moderators in circulation to the private FAC holder, as not everyone uses moderators, would you say that realistically the ratio on Firearms held being manipulated so that the general public get a unrealistic figure? In reality, there will be less than 1/3 of an increase in legally held firearms in the country.

    TJ
    Position and hold must be firm enough to support the firearm
    The firearm must point naturally at the target without any undue physical effort
    Sight alignment (aiming) must be correct
    The shot must be released and followed through without disturbing the position

  2. #2
    Yep moderators would push the numbers up!
    I've got 4 rifles and 4 moderators so does that mean i own 8 firearms?
    As you need a slot for a moderator it can make the numbers of legally held firearms very misleading.

    Daz
    "Smoke me a kipper - i'll be back for breakfast"

  3. #3
    Distinguished Member tartinjock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russian Sniper View Post
    As you need a slot for a moderator it can make the numbers of legally held firearms very misleading.
    My point exactly, would be nice to know what the actual figures are of "Firearms" held, not accessories to a firearm.
    Position and hold must be firm enough to support the firearm
    The firearm must point naturally at the target without any undue physical effort
    Sight alignment (aiming) must be correct
    The shot must be released and followed through without disturbing the position

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by tartinjock View Post
    With those who run this country looking for any reason to get that vote, the issue of firearms will always be high on there agenda.

    With figures published showing that there are now nearly double the amount of firearms held by private individuals, with the government looking to reduce this through various ideas, do you think that they are releasing the truth behind firearms held?

    The reasoning being that moderators have to be on your FAC, this accounting for statistics towards "Firearms Held", so the reality being that if on a ratio of 3 firearms to 2 moderators in circulation to the private FAC holder, as not everyone uses moderators, would you say that realistically the ratio on Firearms held being manipulated so that the general public get a unrealistic figure? In reality, there will be less than 1/3 of an increase in legally held firearms in the country.

    TJ
    A moderator is not a firearm and will not be counted as such they come down on certificates in Strathclyde area as RR rim fire CR centre fire ,requirements then should be one for a centre fire weapon and one for a rim fire weapon thats making sure the weapons all have the same threading which isn't hard to do .

    Moderators are also down as unknown due to no serial numbers being present thus theres no requirement for any sort of variation once you have one be it centre fire or rim fire .

    Also where it states calibre is says NIL how can it be counted as such .
    Last edited by widows son; 01-07-2012 at 13:26.

  5. #5
    what about spare barrels?
    "It's halfway down the hill, directly below that tree next to a rock that looks like a bell-end"

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by widows son View Post
    A moderator is not a firearm and will not be counted as such they come down on certificates in Strathclyde area as RR rim fire CR centre fire ,requirements then should be one for a centre fire weapon and one for a rim fire weapon thats making sure the weapons all have the same threading which isn't hard to do .

    Moderators are also down as unknown due to no serial numbers being present thus theres no requirement for any sort of variation once you have one be it centre fire or rim fire .

    Also where it states calibre is says NIL how can it be counted as such .
    Are you sure about the underlined, above? ... cos, I honestly think otherwise and here's why...

    I quite recently swapped an unfilled moderator slot for an additional rifle instead and that was a one for one variation, no question and therefore free of charge.

    i.e. I swapped an unused authority to acquire one "firearm" for permission to acquire a different "firearm"... and this is in Strathclyde.

    But, I agree with your other remarks about moderators.

    Obviously, I do agree that a moderator is not a "firearm" as such, but then neither is a soft point a loaded round. These facts don't seem to alter the way things are "counted" though. So, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the total firearms count included mods, in fact I expect it does.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamus View Post
    Are you sure about the underlined, above? ... cos, I honestly think otherwise and here's why...

    I quite recently swapped an unfilled moderator slot for an additional rifle instead and that was a one for one variation, no question and therefore free of charge.

    i.e. I swapped an unused authority to acquire one "firearm" for permission to acquire a different "firearm"... and this is in Strathclyde.

    But, I agree with your other remarks about moderators.

    Obviously, I do agree that a moderator is not a "firearm" as such, but then neither is a soft point a loaded round. These facts don't seem to alter the way things are "counted" though. So, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the total firearms count included mods, in fact I expect it does.
    I read the above off of my certificate is this good enough, theres no serial number it does not require a variation, Ive change a few of them over after asking Strathclyde they told me no variation was required as there was no serial numbers to record .

    if you wish another moderator, you must submit the forms for a grant of a second moderator, which will show up on the ticket as two CF moderators

  8. #8
    It's a very interesting point you have made Tartinjock. It could well be that the figures are inflated by the addition of moderators and spare barrels.
    It's the calibre of the shooter that counts not the calibre of the rifle.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by tartinjock View Post
    With those who run this country looking for any reason to get that vote, the issue of firearms will always be high on there agenda.

    With figures published showing that there are now nearly double the amount of firearms held by private individuals, with the government looking to reduce this through various ideas, do you think that they are releasing the truth behind firearms held?

    The reasoning being that moderators have to be on your FAC, this accounting for statistics towards "Firearms Held", so the reality being that if on a ratio of 3 firearms to 2 moderators in circulation to the private FAC holder, as not everyone uses moderators, would you say that realistically the ratio on Firearms held being manipulated so that the general public get a unrealistic figure? In reality, there will be less than 1/3 of an increase in legally held firearms in the country.

    TJ
    Your reasoning is flawed. Moderators aren't firearms, so are excluded at source. If they were not, this would make a nonsense of any comparative or historic assessment. The latest link I've got in my Favourites folder is below along with a chunk of text from that source. There might be another yearly set of figures now, but it hardly matters.

    The official statistics are produced independently by ONS, and each Department's own statistical service so that they're not manipulated for political purposes. These are compiled by professional statisticians who would resent that inference.

    Any unexplained 'jump' in the numbers would need an explanation... see the H.O.S.S. remarks on the latest figures.


    http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publica...11?view=Binary

    Number of certificates on issue
    There were 141,775 firearm certificates on issue at the end of March 2010, an increase of two
    per cent compared with the 138,728 on issue at the end of March 2009. The number of
    firearm certificates on issue declined between 1971 and 2002, from 190,600 certificates to
    117,700 (a decline of 38%). Since 2002, the number of firearm certificates held has risen by
    20 per cent, with the 141,775 held in 2009/10 the highest number since 1996 when 141,900
    certificates were held (Table 1).

    The 141,775 certificates on issue at the end of March 2010 covered 451,131 firearms
    1, the highest since these figures were first collected in 1995. The number of weapons covered
    decreased after the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 came into effect, falling to 295,000 in
    1998, before steadily increasing year on year. However, prior to the advent of NFLMS a
    minority of police forces reported that they were unable to identify weapons that were shared
    between two or more certificate holders. This is particularly true if the certificate holders also
    happened to reside in different police force areas. This means that some weapons were
    ‘double counted’, which would have had the effect of artificially increasing the total number of
    firearms covered by the certificates. The new NFLMS does not double count these shared
    weapons, although in the transition from in-force systems there may be some weapons that
    have slightly different descriptions and therefore may be counted more than once. It is
    anticipated that all double counting will be ended after the completion of the five-year renewal
    cycle in 2012. Due to this, caution should be taken when interpreting these figures.
    The average number of firearms per certificate on 31 March 2010 was 3.2 (Table 3). This
    number is slightly higher than the 3.1 firearms per certificate reported in 2008/09 and the
    highest since figures were first collected in 1995. Figures for 2006/07 and 2007/08 are not
    available due to the transition to NFLMS. The previous available figure was for 2005/06, when
    there were 2.9 weapons on average per certificate.
    1
    This figure includes those actually possessed and those authorised for possession but not yet
    acquired.
    6
    If I'm going to be accused of it then it's just as well I did it.

  10. #10
    My fac, which will be exactly the same as everyone else's, clearly states in section 1, firearms possessed or authorised to be possessed or acquired. This list of "firearms" contains both sound moderators and rifles. A total of 12 entries.

    I do not and can not believe that the types of "firearm" are separated to provide the HO figures.

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