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Thread: Third pre molar

  1. #1

    Third pre molar

    Shot this roe buck this morning. I haven't come across missing third pre-molars before. This deer has never had an adult third pre-molar? The animal was in great condition for it's age weighing 43lbs. Has anyone else seen this before?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CIMG2715.jpg   CIMG2716.jpg   CIMG2728.jpg  
    Last edited by baguio; 15-08-2012 at 15:02.

  2. #2
    Come on guys, someone must have an answer?

  3. #3
    Can't give you an answer to why the molars are missing, hope Morena may come along with an answer, they just don't seem to have developed, which can happen, looking at the tooth wear the buck i would guess is about a 3 or 4 year old, what is quite interesting is the wear on the teeth either side of the missing pre molar, this is caused by over eruption of the tooth in the upper jaw, as it has nothing to oppose against to keep it in place and it drops down into the space and causes excessive wear on the two teeth either side of the space as they also drift in.
    Its amazing how the the teeth drift about in the jaw, when you think that they have sockets down into the bone, if they have nothing to hold them in position they drift and the bone regrows around their new position this is why all your teeth are interlocking to stop them drifting and why orthodontic braces in kids and adults, work, by gradually taking the teeth out of the irregular position, by putting pressure on them and then putting them back so they interlock in an nice even arch.

    Not any further forward on why they are not there but some useless info for you.

    Moose

  4. #4
    Thanks for the info Moose. We recon that he's about 4 too. I originally put old to try to get a bit of discussion on this but no one is biting! Still, it's unusual and is obviously not stopping him eating well. At 43lbs he's a heavy buck for these parts. Shame he had to go really but we're so short of bucks on the cull plan for that area and he came to the call!

  5. #5
    As there are gaps on both sides of the jaw where the PM3 should be ( or to be precise PM4 Riney T. Standard terminology for deer teeth J. Wild Mgmt 15 pp 99-101 ) I would give the opinion these teeth, both the juvenile and permanent never developed in the first place. This would have been due to a " blip " in the embryo germinal tissue.
    Dave Stretton showed me a photo of a Red deer calf where the entire cheek teeth compliment were missing and the incisors were pointed, not the normal spade shape. Obviously the transition from dam's milk to solids was impossible and the animal starved A gross developmental abnormality.
    As explained by moose the top premolars are excessively long and have worn the posterior surfaces of PM2 so they are rounded. There is also rounding of the anterior surfaces M1 plus excessive wear on the anterior cusps.Remember rumination is lateral movement of jaw. Age difficult with abnormal dentition,definitely one for sectioning.
    If you want additional explanation pm me

  6. #6
    Seen it quite a few times in Sika

  7. #7
    Thanks guys. That's some really good info there. I'm glad it's not common in a way. It's nice to shoot something unusual accasionally. How accurate is sectioning and where could I get it done? Also what would the benefit of having it done be? I now wondering if I'm likely to see more of these in the area IE Is it likely to be genetic?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by baguio View Post
    Thanks guys. That's some really good info there. I'm glad it's not common in a way. It's nice to shoot something unusual accasionally. How accurate is sectioning and where could I get it done? Also what would the benefit of having it done be? I now wondering if I'm likely to see more of these in the area IE Is it likely to be genetic?
    Sectioning is the only way to get an accurate age of an animal, you could do it yourself if you have the means to cut and polish a molar, you age by counting the rings similar to ageing a tree.

    The trouble with ageing by tooth wear is that there is a lot of variation in wear from one area to an other depending on the food available soil type etc
    Luckily for stalking purposes we don;t need 100% accuracy being able to recognise young middle aged and old is sufficient for most of us.


    However when you come across something unusual as you have it would be interesting to be able to put an exact age on it, and sectioning is only way to be absolutely certain.

  9. #9
    Examples of tooth sections: Fallow deer from the English Midlands M!
    Second section of M2 to check my reading

    Roe deer from Lanarkshire M1
    Prepared by moose and read by me

    M1 Prepared from tooth extracted from jaw sent to me by moose, sectioned and read by me

  10. #10
    Tooth sectioning used to be considered quite an accurate method of ageing deer that could no longer be aged by tooth eruption. However many leading experts have now discounted its value likening it to walking into a room of deer Stalkers and asking what's the best calibre for shooting deer, if you do the same with a sectioned tooth in a room full of biologists and ask them the age you will get about as many answers.

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