A good buck that wants leaving.

SWstalker

Member
I was stalking recently and came across this 6 point buck that i have been seeing now for a while. His antlers look pretty tall but not thick. However, he is only very young so should be a medal in a few years.
SWstalkerIMG_3783.jpgIMG_3786.jpg
 
A very nice animal but i am not sure i would see him as young.

Another consideration is not all good bucks if left will go on to make make medal class beasts...

I'm afraid I subscribe to the school of thought that if a buck is seen (except an obvious youngster, say under 3 years old) then it gets shot if numbers are needed for the cull, whether it looks like a medal or not. The only exception I can see worth adhering to in those circumstances, is if you genuinely know of several really good heads resident on your ground. An example of this would be in areas like Fife, Scotland where a lot of good medal heads are shot.

I have a mate who will see a few gold medals each year on his ground and in those circumstances picking and choosing what gets shot from one season to the next is an option. But we are talking about someone who has seen 2 or 3 obvious medal class bucks feeding together and allowing for a comparison. It still comes back to the point that a buck that holds a bit of ground, even in his prime has already passed on his genes to his offspring for perhaps the last 3 or 4 seasons, so why not shoot him and wait for his sons to appear?

Just my opinion and not suggesting you are wrong in leaving this one if that is what you want to do, it's your ground to manage after all the way you see fit... ;)

I would be keen to hear what other say that have a number of medal class bucks on their ground each year.
 
He does look a good buck, very hard to judge until your holding his antlers in you hand, my guess is you might be surprised how thick he is in the main beams, as he is long which gives an impression of his antlers being spindly, the shot of him going away doesn't look spindly though.
Nice buck to have about.

Moose
 
Antlers are certainly long and may be thicker than you think, I am not sure but looking at the first photograph the span seems very wide if I am correct then that will cost points when it comes to measuring.
 
Well done for having the courage to leave this animal. No doubt he will have done some good in this rut.

To many people are of the 'see it...shoot it' brigade and then wonder why it is that they never have any animals this big.:doh: It's because you can only kill them once and they need to get older to get bigger!!

Once again well done, his time will come and then you'll get your reward for being patient.
 
Well done for having the courage to leave this animal. No doubt he will have done some good in this rut.

To many people are of the 'see it...shoot it' brigade and then wonder why it is that they never have any animals this big.:doh: It's because you can only kill them once and they need to get older to get bigger!!

Once again well done, his time will come and then you'll get your reward for being patient.

You are wrong and I will tell you why. His time came when this photo was take.

The OP suggests that by leaving this buck it should become a medal???? Can you offer an explanation then to back that theory up and tell us why you agree that this buck is young and has years of improvement still to come to achieve that medal status you appear to desire? The OP just states he has been seeing it for a while now, I assume this relates to this season and not several years to not know for certain it's rough age given the assumed young age?

As I said in my first post, IMO the only way to know for certain what to pick and choose from is by looking at some areas that produce a lot of big or medal class bucks that are seen regularly on the ground and away from borders to neighbours.

The fact of the matter is that unless you are very close it is difficult to assess the age and quality of the head, and they all look bigger on the hoof. To me he actually does not look that young and that is also the opinion of a friend of mine who is a very experienced roe stalker. There was a thread on here not that long ago discussing the genes in male and female deer and how they impart that quality on their offspring. If the OP reckons that by leaving this animal another year he is going to shoot a medal that suggests a relatively ill informed approach and perhaps from someone relatively new to deer management, no disrespect intended. By your argument the country would be coming down with medal class bucks simply by leaving them to old age??? Eh...

A mate of mine shot a huge gold earlier this year that had not been seen on the ground for the last few years. It just appeared and he shot it. Your suggesting he should have left it? These opportunities will not necessarily repeat themselves. So what if this buck does good inthe rut this year, he did good inthe rut more than likely for the last 2 or 3 years!

What does 'having the courage to leave it' actually mean? Does that raise you to a more elevated position of 'stalker greatness' because you can walk away from a buck????

A yearling buck can throw a 6 point head so don't assume anything with regards to age by looking at its antlers.

I have shot enough deer in my life to have no desperation to shoot everything I see, but I have also left enough deer to know that they may never be seen again. The average life expectancy of roebucks is between 6 and 7 years, so the boy in this picture may not be around in a season or twos time.

Last night I was out for Sika stags. I watched a group of 3 come across the field towards me. A big 8 point stag that anyone would have been happy bangingon their wall, a spikes and a really nice 6 pointer. my intention was to obviously shoot one of the lesser beasts and leave the 8 pointer in the hope of getting him with a guest. e was big but I know there are a lot better on the ground. Anyway, they got to around 200yds and I had the safety off waiting for a broadside. Then another stag came running towards them and they turned and started walking away from me. The light was going and and the only beast that presented a **** was the big 8 pointer, so he was shot. I have a hefty cull to make and he counted towards it. It's that simple. There are stags running about just now that he will have sired so why worry?
 
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My pal, having seen a nice buck decided to leave it until after the rut. Oops. The farmer came up to him and said, I shot a nice buck, dead chuffed he was. Grrrrrrrrrr.
 
i had two last year on my ground that looked medal class i stalked into those on many occasions and chose to leave them till after the rut there were plenty of others to take , the rut came and went and i never saw those two again ,atb wayne
 
i had two last year on my ground that looked medal class i stalked into those on many occasions and chose to leave them till after the rut there were plenty of others to take , the rut came and went and i never saw those two again ,atb wayne

Another good example...

All I am getting at is that when making assumptions about wild animals nothing is guaranteed as there are far too many permeable's outwith our control. There is only an element of management that can be applied, then it is in the lap of the gods.

I have very little experience with red stags, but watching a group of say 40 beast will without doubt show an experienced stalker what ones to take before others. I don't think it is as clear cut as that with roe...
 
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A lot depends on the ground the beast is on.
Disturbance of that ground,too many deer on the ground,the feed availability over the winter is what really counts.Should be OK where the OP is from.
The buck doesn't look very young to me,he has a pronounced back end and has a thicker neck than a younger beast but then it is around the rut when the photo was taken.He certainly doesn't look very young to me,middle aged perhaps.
When judging age by photos alone its very difficult,I like to see the gait of the animal as well as the knowledge of the ground myself preferably for a year or two,then you can start making informed decisions about playing about with leaving bucks to mature to medal status if you desire this.
Be hard on your youngsters and your does,mistakes will be made along the way with judging age,all depends on how good a stockman you are IMO
Be prepared as well never to see some beasts again,not all large roe are territorial.
 
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My answers in red

You are wrong and I will tell you why. His time came when this photo was take.

The OP suggests that by leaving this buck it should become a medal???? Can you offer an explanation then to back that theory up and tell us why you agree that this buck is young and has years of improvement still to come to achieve that medal status you appear to desire? The OP just states he has been seeing it for a while now, I assume this relates to this season and not several years to not know for certain it's rough age given the assumed young age?
Young bucks are typically straight in the back, no sagging back or stomach. They are also very much more angular in the haunches. The 'theory' that leaving a younger animal to mature further and therefore get larger antlers is not theory at all. Given equal factors of weather, disturbance, and food supply bucks do get larger until they start to go back usually at approx 6-7 years old.

As I said in my first post, IMO the only way to know for certain what to pick and choose from is by looking at some areas that produce a lot of big or medal class bucks that are seen regularly on the ground and away from borders to neighbours.

Your area is unique to you. Ask any farmer if his fields are the same as those 1 mile away and he'll tell you no. Bucks are equally so

The fact of the matter is that unless you are very close it is difficult to assess the age and quality of the head, and they all look bigger on the hoof. To me he actually does not look that young and that is also the opinion of a friend of mine who is a very experienced roe stalker. There was a thread on here not that long ago discussing the genes in male and female deer and how they impart that quality on their offspring. If the OP reckons that by leaving this animal another year he is going to shoot a medal that suggests a relatively ill informed approach and perhaps from someone relatively new to deer management, no disrespect intended. By your argument the country would be coming down with medal class bucks simply by leaving them to old age??? Eh...

Mature bucks not old ones produce the best heads. I have yet to see a 3 year old silver or gold medal. Fact is that if you are shooting everything as you see it then yes of course you will shoot some large animals but over time your quality will begin to suffer

A mate of mine shot a huge gold earlier this year that had not been seen on the ground for the last few years. It just appeared and he shot it. Your suggesting he should have left it? These opportunities will not necessarily repeat themselves. So what if this buck does good inthe rut this year, he did good inthe rut more than likely for the last 2 or 3 years!

'A mate of mine shot a huge gold earlier this year that had not been seen on the ground for the last few years.' Kinda what I've been saying really. You just shot yourself in the foot. Leave them for a couple more years, they go away, then they come back and they're bigger.

What does 'having the courage to leave it' actually mean? Does that raise you to a more elevated position of 'stalker greatness' because you can walk away from a buck????

I never said I was any better by leaving anything. Just you've got to be a bit brave that some **** on the boundary won't shoot it.

A yearling buck can throw a 6 point head so don't assume anything with regards to age by looking at its antlers.

I have shot enough deer in my life to have no desperation to shoot everything I see, but I have also left enough deer to know that they may never be seen again. The average life expectancy of roebucks is between 6 and 7 years, so the boy in this picture may not be around in a season or twos time.

Last night I was out for Sika stags. I watched a group of 3 come across the field towards me. A big 8 point stag that anyone would have been happy bangingon their wall, a spikes and a really nice 6 pointer. my intention was to obviously shoot one of the lesser beasts and leave the 8 pointer in the hope of getting him with a guest. e was big but I know there are a lot better on the ground. Anyway, they got to around 200yds and I had the safety off waiting for a broadside. Then another stag came running towards them and they turned and started walking away from me. The light was going and and the only beast that presented a **** was the big 8 pointer, so he was shot. I have a hefty cull to make and he counted towards it. It's that simple.
There are stags running about just now that he will have sired so why worry?

If you have cull targets to meet then they must always take priority. If you see one you shoot it. Most people and I suspect the OP aswell do not have those targets and can pick and choose what they shoot. We should equally applaud those who decide to leave an animal as those who decide to shoot one. And we should not chastise this man just because he decided not to shoot.
 
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I am sort of in agreement with jamross65 here, while one should have a management plan it should be based on age not on antlers

60% young

20% middle aged

20% old


As can be seen the majority of your Buck cull should be youngsters ie yearling's

Why not assess a Buck by his antlers? first let me say its impossible to age a Buck just by looking at his antlers
by all means look at the antlers they can help in ageing an animal when taken alongside other factors , no one factor should by taken as a sign of age but when compiled will give you an idea first how does he walk a young g Buck walks with his neck erect as he gets older the neck is at an angle to his body an old Buck will walk with his neck straight out in line with his back, and old Buck tends to have a baggy belly, just like a lot of middle aged men[talking about myself again]
an old Buck tends to have a grey grizzled face with a patch of curly hair between the antlers similar to what you
would see on a bull, from around age seven you will often notice the outside edges of the coronets
start to slope down.

The size of a Bucks antlers can vary from year to year depending various factors food availability being one of the main ones, though the basic shape normally stays the same, so what looks a promising Buck this year, you may class as a cull buck next year.

Bucks in a good area may produce six points on a first head but these are the first Bucks to be driven away

While a mature Buck may allow a poor quality youngster on his territory as does not see him as a threat he certainly won't allow a promising Buck.


Once driven off and having to take up residence in a poorer area that Buck may never again produce the quality of head as he did as a yearling.

The only way to manage a roe population is by age and body condition, body condition will be your indicator of age

As for the comments about leaving a good Buck till after the rut it does not really make sense, (a) you may never see him again (b) if he is a mature Buck his genes will already have been passed on in previous years, you may not have noticed him previously because his head was not as good but his Genes would have been the same they have not changed just because he has grown a bigger head

If you have a small population of Roe and no need to make cull figures you could leave a young or middle aged Buck or two to see how they develop but you may well be disappointed, they will reach their prime around 6 years of age and there is nothing to gain in the following years after that by his seventh year he should be in your cull plan as old and its time to take them out.


Stick to the cull plan age ratio wise and the heads will take care of themselves.
 
I am sort of in agreement with jamross65 here, while one should have a management plan it should be based on age not on antlers

60% young

20% middle aged

20% old


As can be seen the majority of your Buck cull should be youngsters ie yearling's

Why not assess a Buck by his antlers? first let me say its impossible to age a Buck just by looking at his antlers
by all means look at the antlers they can help in ageing an animal when taken alongside other factors , no one factor should by taken as a sign of age but when compiled will give you an idea first how does he walk a young g Buck walks with his neck erect as he gets older the neck is at an angle to his body an old Buck will walk with his neck straight out in line with his back, and old Buck tends to have a baggy belly, just like a lot of middle aged men[talking about myself again]
an old Buck tends to have a grey grizzled face with a patch of curly hair between the antlers similar to what you
would see on a bull, from around age seven you will often notice the outside edges of the coronets
start to slope down.

The size of a Bucks antlers can vary from year to year depending various factors food availability being one of the main ones, though the basic shape normally stays the same, so what looks a promising Buck this year, you may class as a cull buck next year.

Bucks in a good area may produce six points on a first head but these are the first Bucks to be driven away

While a mature Buck may allow a poor quality youngster on his territory as does not see him as a threat he certainly won't allow a promising Buck.


Once driven off and having to take up residence in a poorer area that Buck may never again produce the quality of head as he did as a yearling.

The only way to manage a roe population is by age and body condition, body condition will be your indicator of age

As for the comments about leaving a good Buck till after the rut it does not really make sense, (a) you may never see him again (b) if he is a mature Buck his genes will already have been passed on in previous years, you may not have noticed him previously because his head was not as good but his Genes would have been the same they have not changed just because he has grown a bigger head

If you have a small population of Roe and no need to make cull figures you could leave a young or middle aged Buck or two to see how they develop but you may well be disappointed, they will reach their prime around 6 years of age and there is nothing to gain in the following years after that by his seventh year he should be in your cull plan as old and its time to take them out.


Stick to the cull plan age ratio wise and the heads will take care of themselves.
100% in agreement with everything,especially age rather than head size as a management gauge.
Heads should be shot as a bonus to an already in place age related management plan,as bogtrotter says take care of that and quality will get better normally.
Certain bits you have to hammer and leave nothing,others you can play about a bit.
Often get good heads off places that I shoot hard,a buck from a neighbour who is trying to let grow for a medal;)
 
My answers in red

You are wrong and I will tell you why. His time came when this photo was take.

The OP suggests that by leaving this buck it should become a medal???? Can you offer an explanation then to back that theory up and tell us why you agree that this buck is young and has years of improvement still to come to achieve that medal status you appear to desire? The OP just states he has been seeing it for a while now, I assume this relates to this season and not several years to not know for certain it's rough age given the assumed young age?
Young bucks are typically straight in the back, no sagging back or stomach. They are also very much more angular in the haunches. The 'theory' that leaving a younger animal to mature further and therefore get larger antlers is not theory at all. Given equal factors of weather, disturbance, and food supply bucks do get larger until they start to go back usually at approx 6-7 years old.

As I said in my first post, IMO the only way to know for certain what to pick and choose from is by looking at some areas that produce a lot of big or medal class bucks that are seen regularly on the ground and away from borders to neighbours.

Your area is unique to you. Ask any farmer if his fields are the same as those 1 mile away and he'll tell you no. Bucks are equally so

The fact of the matter is that unless you are very close it is difficult to assess the age and quality of the head, and they all look bigger on the hoof. To me he actually does not look that young and that is also the opinion of a friend of mine who is a very experienced roe stalker. There was a thread on here not that long ago discussing the genes in male and female deer and how they impart that quality on their offspring. If the OP reckons that by leaving this animal another year he is going to shoot a medal that suggests a relatively ill informed approach and perhaps from someone relatively new to deer management, no disrespect intended. By your argument the country would be coming down with medal class bucks simply by leaving them to old age??? Eh...

Mature bucks not old ones produce the best heads. I have yet to see a 3 year old silver or gold medal. Fact is that if you are shooting everything as you see it then yes of course you will shoot some large animals but over time your quality will begin to suffer

A mate of mine shot a huge gold earlier this year that had not been seen on the ground for the last few years. It just appeared and he shot it. Your suggesting he should have left it? These opportunities will not necessarily repeat themselves. So what if this buck does good inthe rut this year, he did good inthe rut more than likely for the last 2 or 3 years!

'A mate of mine shot a huge gold earlier this year that had not been seen on the ground for the last few years.' Kinda what I've been saying really. You just shot yourself in the foot. Leave them for a couple more years, they go away, then they come back and they're bigger.

What does 'having the courage to leave it' actually mean? Does that raise you to a more elevated position of 'stalker greatness' because you can walk away from a buck????

I never said I was any better by leaving anything. Just you've got to be a bit brave that some **** on the boundary won't shoot it.

A yearling buck can throw a 6 point head so don't assume anything with regards to age by looking at its antlers.

I have shot enough deer in my life to have no desperation to shoot everything I see, but I have also left enough deer to know that they may never be seen again. The average life expectancy of roebucks is between 6 and 7 years, so the boy in this picture may not be around in a season or twos time.

Last night I was out for Sika stags. I watched a group of 3 come across the field towards me. A big 8 point stag that anyone would have been happy bangingon their wall, a spikes and a really nice 6 pointer. my intention was to obviously shoot one of the lesser beasts and leave the 8 pointer in the hope of getting him with a guest. e was big but I know there are a lot better on the ground. Anyway, they got to around 200yds and I had the safety off waiting for a broadside. Then another stag came running towards them and they turned and started walking away from me. The light was going and and the only beast that presented a **** was the big 8 pointer, so he was shot. I have a hefty cull to make and he counted towards it. It's that simple.
There are stags running about just now that he will have sired so why worry?

If you have cull targets to meet then they must always take priority. If you see one you shoot it. Most people and I suspect the OP aswell do not have those targets and can pick and choose what they shoot. We should equally applaud those who decide to leave an animal as those who decide to shoot one. And we should not chastise this man just because he decided not to shoot.

Firstly

Bogtrotter puts it across very well and his comments are good guidance.

Teyhan

You are looking at a photo from a fair distance away, and I'm afraid even although I have perfect vision yours must be better than mine, because that buck to me looks thick set enough to not be a youngster. Especially around the neck in the second photo.

Larger antlers do not mean better antlers as far as scoring points is concerned. Some ground because of feeding and mineral content produces regular medal heads, and they will appear at a fairly young age. The head on this beast may well be as good as its going o get. It may in fact go back next year as I still don't think it is particularly young. Some of the highest scoring heads may not be very long or particularly good looking, but the weight of the skull, volume and in some cases the incredible thickness is where they score big, and that I assume is down to quality of feed and minerals. They are exceptions and not the norm and do not appear just because a buck has been left to grow that old.

There is no correlation between a 'best' head and a 'good' head. My mate shot a buck last year that scored 187points. It is no thing of beauty but a trophy of a lifetime nonetheless. Is that a 'best' head or a 'good' one? The buck only weighed 40 odd lbs. That is not a big body weight for a roe buck compared to some areas I know of. At 200yds away would you have assessed that beast and shot it or left it?

I did not mean to sound like I was criticising him so sorry if that is how it came across. My point was that some folk will leave deer because they think it is the right thing to do without really knowing the full reasons why and what leaving that beast may mean.

As bogtrotter says, culls should be based on age and not antler quality. Fine if under no pressure but I do not agree that by shooting bucks like this the surviving population will begin to suffer because the numbers you have shot are done so given acreage, quality/availability of food, shelter and so on. And given the territorial habits of both roe bucks and does, there will be one of his sons hanging about the boundaries waiting to step in when he is gone and carry on the genetic pool...
 
Another thing Teyhan,the buck Jamross is talking about which was left for 2 years was within a broad leave plantation(deer fenced)himself,no other roe in it.
Not the monstrosity@191CIC but the one that was shot this year@166CIC,therefore I knew to leave him in peace and quiet and he wouldn't be travelling anywhere,a lot different from a lot of pieces of ground,most bucks can wander about where they like.
I "left" a beast 6/7 years ago on another piece of ground I have with the expectation of seeing him again,nice buck 10/11 pointer with weight in antler and age,big mistake,never seen him again.
Large woods next door to you are not conducive to being able to manage a roe population correctly(depends on what you are trying to achieve on that ground
 
What I am really trying to fight against here is the "I better shoot it before he does" culture. It is that attitude that will eventually be passed on to younger shooters and will be very difficult to get rid of. I too take clients and many of them are Danish. They look in awe at what we have and when I question them about their shooting they talk about only shooting small bucks and shooting them in the first couple of weeks of the season or the neighbour will !! I don't want to go down this route. It seems strange that on the continent deer are treated as an asset and a truly noble creature. Whereas sometimes here in the U.K. we still treat these animals like vermin ( and I have been told by some people that that is what they are ) and not the valuable naturally renewing asset they can be.
 
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