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Thread: Stalking condition

  1. #1

    Stalking condition

    Out last night chalking up the stalks with qualified and experienced stalker he also took out a paying "stalker" who used one of my hosts rifles.
    In conversation it came out that this "stalker" does not have any qualifications other than half a dozen accompanied stalks, never gralloched, does not know the 6 species... in other words does not know jack poo.
    Yet he has been given an unrestricted stalking condition on a cert that he has had for less than a year.

    I on the other hand, due to having a right so and so as a FEO, am having to do DSC1 (which I dont mind really) Have a dozen successful stalks including grallochs, been burning the midnight oil learning stuff essential to getting qualified.

    Now feeling somewhat peed off and wondering what its all about as we both are in the same licensing area.

    Never mind just wanted to get that off my chest.....

  2. #2
    Everyone these days seems so hung up on qualifications ,you have had the end of the stick that required you to fill in all the boxes with the correct ticks he "the stalker " had the end that did not I"ll let you decide which was the shitty end .i have fortunately have shot long enough to have been given the route of least resistance but dare say even I will have to succumb to the red tape brigade .
    keep plugging away
    regards
    norma

  3. #3
    Actually if you think about it, "the stalkers" licensing department dealt with his application correctly.
    Why should the ability to paunch or identify every species of deer have anything to do with the grant of a FAC.

  4. #4
    Looks like you have been treated in an arbitrary manner, I suspect you can make a strong and reasonable case for an open certificate!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by cjm1066 View Post
    Looks like you have been treated in an arbitrary manner, I suspect you can make a strong and reasonable case for an open certificate!

    Good luck .................................................. .... from personal experience you might need it.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieT View Post
    Actually if you think about it, "the stalkers" licensing department dealt with his application correctly.
    Why should the ability to paunch or identify every species of deer have anything to do with the grant of a FAC.

    I'm sorry, but the "Unreasonable conditions" brigade are so short sighted it's untrue. If people can't see the reasoning behind a total novice being granted an FAC to shoot deer, and then having an "accompanied" condition applied, I think the shooting community have a bigger problem !

    If you're granted an FAC, it's considered you're safe to own, and shoot the firearm, it doesn't mean you know one jot about shooting a deer, the seasons it's legal to, therefore deer identification, and what the heck to do with the deer should you be successful !!!

    It's no different to getting a provisional driving license. You wouldn't expect a 17 year old, who's never driven before, to be allowed to get into a car, and drive unaccompanied, it would be ridiculous. The reasoning behind the conditions is simple common sense !

    And it's totally different to being granted the FAC, and not having to be accompanied to shoot vermin/fox with the same rifle.

    I was also given an "accompanied" condition with my FAC. At first, I was a little irritated by it. I saw it as being a little insulting, but the reality was, I really didn't want to go off stalking on my own, I WANTED to be with someone with experience, so I could learn how to do it correctly, and I suspect that if you asked all the total novices whether they really wanted to be out there on their own, from day one, they'd say the same thing.

    I still consider myself a novice, but the condition (now lifted) allowed me to gain experience whilst out doing what I really enjoy, WITHOUT having to have done the DSC1 first. Because if the Police are forced through continued pressure to drop the conditions , the alternative will be them trying to get things changed so getting an FAC for deer will require the DSC1 regardless.


    Mark.

  7. #7
    Lateral, and if you cannot see that there is no difference between shooting a fox or other vermin and a deer, then you did not deserve to have your condition lifted, to kill is to kill and to say it only matters if it is a deer, shows you never learn,t a lot. And shows that having a mentor condition is a waste of time.
    Last edited by Taff; 16-08-2012 at 13:55.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateral View Post
    I'm sorry, but the "Unreasonable conditions" brigade are so short sighted it's untrue. If people can't see the reasoning behind a total novice being granted an FAC to shoot deer, and then having an "accompanied" condition applied, I think the shooting community have a bigger problem !If you're granted an FAC, it's considered you're safe to own, and shoot the firearm, it doesn't mean you know one jot about shooting a deer, the seasons it's legal to, therefore deer identification, and what the heck to do with the deer should you be successful !!!It's no different to getting a provisional driving license. You wouldn't expect a 17 year old, who's never driven before, to be allowed to get into a car, and drive unaccompanied, it would be ridiculous. The reasoning behind the conditions is simple common sense !And it's totally different to being granted the FAC, and not having to be accompanied to shoot vermin/fox with the same rifle. I was also given an "accompanied" condition with my FAC. At first, I was a little irritated by it. I saw it as being a little insulting, but the reality was, I really didn't want to go off stalking on my own, I WANTED to be with someone with experience, so I could learn how to do it correctly, and I suspect that if you asked all the total novices whether they really wanted to be out there on their own, from day one, they'd say the same thing.I still consider myself a novice, but the condition (now lifted) allowed me to gain experience whilst out doing what I really enjoy, WITHOUT having to have done the DSC1 first. Because if the Police are forced through continued pressure to drop the conditions , the alternative will be them trying to get things changed so getting an FAC for deer will require the DSC1 regardless.Mark.
    So, let me get this straight. If you hadn't had the "experienced stalker" condition, you wouldn't have been allowed to seek guidance? No one is saying that guidance shouldn't be sought in a discipline you aren't familiar with. What is REALLY objected to is the police thinking they have the right/power to insist on it as a prerequisite to being granted an FAC to shoot deer. It is NOT laid down in law that you have to, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the DSC qualifications are still voluntary, are they not?If a shooter is granted an FAC and then acts illegally, then there are laws already in place that he can be prosecuted under. There is no need to add a second layer by insisting on a qualification which HAS NO STANDING IN LAW.
    You can't say muntjac without saying, Mmmmmm.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Taff View Post
    Lateral, and if you cannot see that there is no difference between shooting a fox or other vermin and a deer, then you did not deserve to have your condition lifted, to kill is to kill and to say it only matters if it is a deer, shows you never learn,t a lot. And shows that having a mentor condition is a waste of time.
    I'm not talking about the ability to shoot, and kill something. That's why we have a rifle conditioned to shoot vermin, or deer, but you REALLY likening shooting a crow, or a fox, to shooting a deer, REALLY ?

    Do you need to know what type of fox, or crow it is first, do they have "open, & closed" seasons, do you need to know about food hygiene, & what to look for before eating the vermin that you're shooting ???


    Harry,


    Of course I could, and indeed did seek guidance, regardless of the condition I had, but are you suggesting that can also be applied to a new learner driver ? Seek guidance, read a book, watch the video, go for a drive round the M25 ???

    I'm not advocating the introduction of the DSC1 a a prerequisite to a deer staking condition, that would be a nightmare, but is a condition really as bad as people are making out, or just some common sense, to allow novices a chance to find there feet ?

    "Conditions" are not written in law, but they are certainly available to the FAO to use legally, at their digression, and I'm just saying that this is better than some of the alternatives that "might" be introduced.

    Are all conditions fair, and reasonable ? absolutely not, and people should fight those for a fairer outcome, but some are, if take in context.

    A "closed" license condition is utterly stupid. Someone either is safe, or they aren't. If they're considered safe to give an FAC, the ticket should be open, to me, the alternative is an FAC refusal !

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieT View Post
    Actually if you think about it, "the stalkers" licensing department dealt with his application correctly.
    Why should the ability to paunch or identify every species of deer have anything to do with the grant of a FAC.
    I'm not picking on CharlieT's post in particular, but need to make the point that DSC1 involves a lot more content than deer stalking topics. It contains an awful lot of training in the law, firearms safety, and a practical shooting test under instruction from experienced and older hands.

    Oddly enough, the training required in safer environments such as target ranges is a lot tougher than 'in the field'. I wonder why this is. Novice (probationary) members of HOAC shooting clubs need to be members for at least 6 months, and shoot regularly under supervision. They're also formally assessed before being made up to full members.

    Most with few exceptions have to qualify under the NRA Safe Shooting Scheme which affiliated civilian clubs have to implement before booking MOD Ranges. Even clubs with private ranges are introducing this voluntarily to comply with insurance and safety regs. Take a gander at this.......
    Appendix 1: The NRA Safe Shooting System (SSS)

    1. The MoD requires all civilian organisations using military ranges to have an auditable system of training based
    on a specific risk assessment. In response the NRA has developed a Safe Shooting System (SSS), which has
    been approved by the MoD. All clubs affiliated to the NRA who use military ranges must adopt the NRA Safe
    Shooting System, to be introduced by 1st July 2008.
    By 1st January 2009, civilian shooters must also have an
    annual certificate of competence signed by their Club Chairman.
    2. Organisations with existing MoD-approved Codes of Practice (e.g. BDS and MLAGB) are not required to follow
    the NRA SSS. Other groups, however, will need to adopt the NRA system or have their training approved by the
    NRA. The NRA SSS is based on four elements: safe person, safe equipment, safe practice and safe place.
    A. Safe Person
    The safe shooter is someone who has received the information, training and supervision to enable them
    to acquire knowledge and develop the skills necessary to demonstrate that they can handle firearms
    and ammunition safely. The NRA probationary course provides this training.
    B. Safe Equipment
    The NRA Rules of Shooting, published annually, define the types of firearms and ammunition that may
    be used for target shooting. The individual shooter is responsible to his Club Chairman for ensuring
    that his firearm is properly maintained and that the ammunition used is in every way safe and within the
    range parameters for muzzle velocity (MV) and muzzle energy (ME). Only copper or steel jacketed lead
    core or solid lead rounds may be fired by civilians on MoD ranges.
    C. Safe Practice
    The NRA Rules of Shooting contain detailed regulations concerning the conduct of shooting for all its
    shooting disciplines. Qualified NRA RCOs are responsible for the safe running of MoD ranges for
    civilian shooters. Additional RCO qualifications are required if Sporting Rifles, Muzzle loading firearms
    or ammunition developing an ME > 4500J are being used on MoD ranges. A specific zeroing practice
    will also be required for those using ammunition with an ME > 4500J. In the event of an incident on
    military ranges involving a civilian shooter a joint MoD /NRA inquiry will take place and the club will be
    required to assist with the investigation.
    D. Safe Place
    A safe place is one in which the controls which are necessary to enable shooting to be conducted safely
    have been identified by a site-specific risk assessment and directed through the Range Standing Orders.
    All MoD ranges have site specific range standing orders which must be complied with at all times. MoD
    ranges are maintained by the range administering unit and are subject to regular inspections. The NRA
    RCO running the range for a civilian club must sign for the range on the MoD Form 906, thus certifying
    that he is qualified to conduct the shooting practice and that he has read and will comply with the range
    standing orders. An RCO (HME) must annotate the MoD 906 if ammunition with an ME > 4500J is used.
    The NRA and NSRA have produced guidance material on the Construction of Ranges and the Safe
    Management of Ranges for clubs which own their own ranges.

    So there's now compulsory training required for target shooters. There has to be a message here for sporting shooters who are fortunate to be granted a lot more freedom. They don't have to offer much in return for this trust. DSC1 is a good grounding for novice stalkers, but if Kent FLD can justify this it should be required for all new starters.
    I think that Willowbank is entitled to be a bit peeved on this, but (their usual claim) each FEO, and licensing decision is different within the same area. There's never been much hope of appeal on comparability grounds. Dumbing down isn't the answer either, so on balance I'd rather have DSC1 for newcomers only rather than nothing.
    If I'm going to be accused of it then it's just as well I did it.

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