DCS Proposals

traveler

Well-Known Member
Wondered what members thought of the recent DCS proposals to change aspects of Scottish deer legislation, mainly with regard to red deer?

The one which has upset a lot of professional stalkers, myself included, is the proposal to abolish the stag season altogether. My main gripe is that in a female biased population, why turn management into a free for all on stags? Granted stags are perhaps more likely to cause damage on agricultural ground/in forestry,but it seems to me like they are being made a scapegoat as they are an easy target. If there is a change of legislation due to these proposals it will mean that most of these stags will be shot just beyond the current season, and in the spring when they are seeking any fresh grass coming through. Stags are vulnerable at this time because physically they are at their lowest ebb, having lost a great proportion of their weight during the rut and having to start growing new antlers in the spring. The thought of shooting Knackered,smelly,black stags at that time of year while they are desperately trying to recoup some body condition absolutely disgusts me.

People have worked hard to promote venison and get it known(rightly) as the superb natural food that it is, what are the dealers going to do with the tainted meat they will receive at that time of year? I dont know anybody who manages deer who would eat a stag killed then. Great PR for venison.

The pro tree and anti estate lobby have for years tried to give people the impression that there is an inexhaustable supply of deer out there and given deer the status of vermin(sometimes only for political reasons too).Public opinion is turning against deer because of this.

Public meetings have been held to discuss the ''problem'' of deer on the road-generally called for by people who have moved into more rural areas to enjoy the ''good life''-the countryside,scenery and wildlife-and then decide that on their convenience trips/commute back to town that these animals that have to cross the road that have been there for hundreds of years are actually an inconvenience. (its also got nothing to do with the fact that roads and cars have got so much faster over the last ten years-is this the fault of the deer?) Also no mention of the thousands of acres of tradational wintering ground that deer have been fenced out of over the last 20 years in the name of native woodland regeneration(which I'm all for), again though, no fault of the deer.

Red deer in scotland are an iconic species,a national asset and source of employment, they are also a key part of the biodiversity and environment that so many people would have them eradicated from to ''protect''. Surely they should be managed as such.

Look forward to hearing everybody's ideas.
 
T.
I would of thought that the proposals to abolish the stag season is to reduce the amount of hinds that will be served in the rut thus eventually having the same effect as reducing the hind numbers..

regards
griff
 
I don't suppose it has even crossed their minds to consider the effects it might have on genetic diversity. :rolleyes:


Sad boys, sad. :cry:
 
Instead of a few realy good stags servicing the hinds; because of the shortage all of the crap stags will get their ends away as well so it will reduce the overall standard of the species that natural selection and sympethetic culling has acheived over hundreds of years.

Dave
 
It seems we really have a problem in Scotland and the DCS will certainly be part of that problem while in a few hot spots there are too many deer there are places were there are none. But the problem i see with this strategy is we will be letting the sika stags cover the hinds if we remove the reds stags. Already every one is up in arms about the Red Gene pool but the consequences of removing the red stags in great numbers is unmeasurable.The DCS with all the pro stalkers :lol: should set a mass sika cull and make sure the red breeds as true as it can .This would also have the effect of bringing the number of deer doing damage to trees down and every stalker knows that the sika will damage 10 the trees a red deer will.
 
I thought that the "deregulation" proposal was for ALL SPECIES OF DEER not just Red.

A means of giving more time to those "managers" who were not efficient or willing to do what was necessary, when necessary?

Remember, there are a great many land owners who choose to allow deer to amass to a level that impact upon agriculture, SSSI, road traffic etc. and there is zero management.

Keep your own backyard clean and no one will tell you how to do it, or even turn up and clean it for you :)

Stan
 
smullery said:
I thought that the "deregulation" proposal was for ALL SPECIES OF DEER not just Red.

A means of giving more time to those "managers" who were not efficient or willing to do what was necessary, when necessary?

Remember, there are a great many land owners who choose to allow deer to amass to a level that impact upon agriculture, SSSI, road traffic etc. and there is zero management.

Keep your own backyard clean and no one will tell you how to do it, or even turn up and clean it for you :)

Stan

Cheers chaps, some interesting thoughts.

Griff, the DCS, to quote their own ''best practice guidance'' in a sporting management situation reccommend that ''it is best to aim for an equal male/female sex ratio'' so what they are proposing contradicts that.

Greater hybridisation with sika, in some areas could become a reality, although this will also depend on the amount of hinds available to the sika stags.

Stan I dont know of any land where the situation exists that you talk about, although this is exactly the kind of perception that many people in certain bodies would like to give. Landowners cant afford not to manage their deer, whether for financial or environmental reasons. If you could tell me any large area of land where there is the ''Zero management' that you talk about I would be very interested to hear of it. Even on land that has no full time deer manager employed, there are very few places that do not have somebody involved in managing the deer, you only have to look at the demand for stalking to realise why that is the case.

Deer numbers/densities on any given piece of ground are only either too high or too low depending on your management objectives. Deer management is a form of land use and the impact that they have depends on how you are trying to manage the land.

In the past in some areas deer have perhaps been allowed to overpopulate, but then again its all relative.
I work in an area where deer densities are very low overall, but these proposals could still be very damaging to our business and my employment.

As for keeping our own backyard clean.....deer stalking certificates,meat hygiene courses,habitat assesments,new larders.......the list goes on.
 
Traveller,

Around Castle Douglas there are plenty of syndicated plots of land that see few members on it. Pub talk is of plenty of Roe on under shot land, taking the **** out of neighbouring stalkers. Bit obvious really.

There's a garden centre near Gatehouse of Fleet that is raided by Roe but the owner of the adjacent land "likes to see deer".

Same with a mate who is in Sowerby Bridge near Halifax. Market garden with Orchard plagued by Roe but little safe shots on it. Backstop in one direction is a bit of a rise between Tesco's and a school!!!

Adjacent land where the deer come from could be shot safely but the owner doesn't want it.

Locally to me here in Lincoln is a DMG set up by three local landowners and a couple of woodland trusts. They want 100% zero tolerance. FC rangers from elsewhere come in a few times a year and kill everything. Not stalking just eradication.

Stan
 
Hi Stan

Think we're talking about different management scenarios and parts of the country here. I was really talking about red deer in their tradational ranges.

Cheers

Traveler
 
Traveller,

The point is that the DCS proposals are not targetting the traditional estates managing revenue out of commercial stalking. They have no interest in that as it isn't a problem or issue.

Stan
 
Not so sure, they may not be intentionally targeting estates, but some of the proposals, particularly the one to abolish the stag season could be very damaging to some estates, particularly smaller and more marginal ones.

Besides, to me its more a matter of ethics about shooting stags at certain times of the year, but Ive said that already.
 
Traveler,

The smaller or marginal estates make money out of shooting guests. The abolition of the stag season will not make it compulsory to shoot stags all year round.

The estates can choose to follow the old seasons so long as numbers don't get out of hand. If your management plan allows for say 12 stags then you only shoot 12. If on the other hand you really need to shoot 40 and only manage 30 then you can squeeze the other 10 in after the current deadline.

I have stalked in Perthshire these past two years in a forest that has all year shooting on reds with zero tolerance.

The extension of the doe season for Roe is fine from a management perspective when you have restricted access because of game shooting but not for me from a sporting aspect.

Stan
 
Smaller or marginal estates being ones of a lesser acreage,near to the edge of the natural deer range, or neighbouring with conflicting interests-these will be affected if the proposals become law. I see this happening first hand.

I really wanted to guage members' opinions and perceptions on the proposals particularly with regard to the ethics of shooting stags out of season, and the levels at which deer are percieved to be a pest/vermin, as opposed to a natural asset, as per my original post.
 
Having hit the roof after first seeing the proposals, I must admit I don't think they will change a thing other than possibly cutting some red tape.

Those who need to shoot out of season all ready do, it is not forcing anyone to do so.

There may be some concerns over venison quality [unfounded in my mind], the main point is that there are absolutely no welfare issues with shooting male deer out of season.

As far as genetic diversity goes, I don't think it'll be a problem.
 
Hi B-S

The people who shoot out of season for legitimate reasons, arent a problem as far as I can see. My worry is that some of these proposals will make it easier for those who do'nt need to shoot out of season (those who are shooting deer through profit and greed, or because of politics) to do so at will.

Every area of the country has its own issues affecting deer management in a given area, and while some of these proposals will help some deer managers I honestly think that, in the crofting counties in particular they will lead to more difficulties.

As you say there are no welfare issues with shooting males out of season, but there is an ethical/sporting one for me. I would not want to shoot stags outside of the current ''just because I could''(we have no need to here because we can complete all our culls well within season). If stags need to be shot out of season they currently can be under license, and I dont dispute the fact that in some situations they need to be, I just dont see why, with that facility already in place more relaxation is needed? I could understand if the DCS were calling for a further reduction in hind numbers.

Respect for the deer themselves is key for me, and all the politics surrounding deer management in the highlands do'nt sit easy with me at the moment.
 
Hi B-S

The people who shoot out of season for legitimate reasons, arent a problem as far as I can see. My worry is that some of these proposals will make it easier for those who do'nt need to shoot out of season (those who are shooting deer through profit and greed, or because of politics) to do so at will.

Every area of the country has its own issues affecting deer management in a given area, and while some of these proposals will help some deer managers I honestly think that, in the crofting counties in particular they will lead to more difficulties.

As you say there are no welfare issues with shooting males out of season, but there is an ethical/sporting one for me. I would not want to shoot stags outside of the current ''just because I could''(we have no need to here because we can complete all our culls well within season). If stags need to be shot out of season they currently can be under license, and I dont dispute the fact that in some situations they need to be, I just dont see why, with that facility already in place more relaxation is needed? I could understand if the DCS were calling for a further reduction in hind numbers.

Respect for the deer themselves is key for me, and all the politics surrounding deer management in the highlands do'nt sit easy with me at the moment.
 
24 hour drinking...

All premises are now "legally" allowed but they don't. The legislation removed the need for constant extensions on a case by case basis.

There will always be problems/issues on certain locations/premises but the legislation allows for this to be addressed on a case rather than general basis.

Venison as a National iconic product has the opportunity to be large business. Stalking trophies isn't harvesting Venison, it's the classic "profit" of a managed plan. Culling hinds is venison production...

As no one owns deer until they fall dead upon the landowners lot, then there will be contention as to who/what/ etc.

Stan
 
Traveler Great post and i totally agree were a situation arises that the male deer need managed out with the current season then all you need do is pick up the phone an out of season ticket will be given no problem there and then. ;)
 
For many highland estates stalking trophies is a very small, or non existent part of their management plan.

The very large proportion of the stag cull is taken to improve the herd, control numbers, and produce venison.

As you will know, Stan, stags weigh considerably more than hinds therefore the stag venison is every bit as much (if not more important) than that produced from the hind cull.

Some learned deer people would argue the best venison you could eat is from a (preferably young) stag shot in july, which is why many estates that have increased their stag culls have been culling the extra stags in july(within the current season) instead of later in the season when the stalking is less of a challenge and the venison is of a lesser quality.

As you will know, stan, stags are still in velvet at that time indicating that the venison produced from that culling period is perhaps more important than the trophy.

Many gamedalers drop their prices towards the end of the stag season.

If you would like to gain a perspective of how the specific situations I am talking about actually unfold, first hand, on the ground, feel free to give me a shout and I could show you the situation as it stands in practice as opposed to on paper.

Unlike the drinking laws you talk of, if these proposals become law there will be no legislation to deal with individual cases as you suggest-thats the point here, we are talking about deregulation, not fit for purpose, workable legislation.


As for 24hr drinking.....??? I hope none of these types of premises opens just over my boundary.....otherwise I may have no stags left at all come the season.....???
 
Traveller, you have made your point well and I agree with you totally. I recently attend the open meeting with the SNH at Kingussie (the body that will be taking over from the DCS)and asked why when they enforce estates to cull more in the interest of conservation of mainly trees, why they cant enforce others not to cull as many when there are next to none left where once there were heatlthy herds.
The answer confused me - If a private land owner wants to wipe out their deer population they can. Yet they (SNH) still say the Red Deer is an icon of Scotland. I'm afraid conservation has taken over our countryside and its a worse place for it.
 
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