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Thread: Designer bred animals

  1. #1

    Designer bred animals

    Looking around the african outfitters I'm noticing an increase in the number of 'designer animals' available to hunt. Once upon a time you could hunt a springbok. Now you can hunt a normal, black, white and copper coloured springbok. Normal blesbok and white blesbok. Even white lion. All they are selectively line bred animals. They are not a new species, hybrid or integrade etc.

    This is nothing new, man has chosen to line breed domesticated animals and even pets for centuries. I'm sure they'll be a number of 'collectors' out there that will be happy to pay upto $1200 for a copper springbok as it's something different.

    What do SD hunters think about this? Could you be bothered trying for a new colour variant of an antelope? Is it a clever way for outfitters to exploit 'collecctors'?

    Will this ever happen heere in the UK? Will we ever see albino munties offered?

  2. #2
    The color variations do occur natural in nature, like the king cheetah, a resesive gene is responsible for this occurances. I do not have aproblem if this occurs naturally, unfortuneately their are gamefarm owners that have breeding programs to breed this type of animals. With this practise I have a big problem. As a human race we have done many things that destoyed our natural heritage, because of this we have no option other than to manage it, but managing color variants are against my norms.

    There is also the question of supply and demand, there is a definate demand for this color variations that is why they are bred. For me this is a greed thing. Unfortunately we have collectors spread over the world with lots of money that believe their money can buy what they want, then you get the people who are prepared to do anything to get that money. There are many examples of this, canned hunts, drugged animals and captive bred animals. I personally is 1000% opposed to this.

    For me a true hunting experience is one where you hunt hard for your trophies and you must have a big pot of luck to get the exceptional trophies.

  3. #3
    Although we do have common and white blesbok at Nduna Lodge, there is no attempt to "manage" these colour variants and they breed as they will. We do offer colour variants because there is a definite market for them and after all, we are in business. Like SA Hunt, we are in ethical business, and like him, we abhor the thought of "canned" hunts, drugged animals and captive "bred to hunt" animals. We do not think a person is a bad hunter or wrong because he wishes to hunt colour variants, as long as in doing so, all proper ethics are observed. We also agree with SA Hunt that there is (or there should be) a great element of luck in successfully hunting an exceptional trophy. However, we know they are out there and we know where to look.
    www.ndunahuntingsafaris.com Facebook

    Tel: +44(0)7866-571180 david@nduna.co.za

    Official RSA Outfitter to Realtree International Pro Staff & Team Wild

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Nduna Safaris View Post
    Although we do have common and white blesbok at Nduna Lodge, there is no attempt to "manage" these colour variants and they breed as they will. We do offer colour variants because there is a definite market for them and after all, we are in business. Like SA Hunt, we are in ethical business, and like him, we abhor the thought of "canned" hunts, drugged animals and captive "bred to hunt" animals. We do not think a person is a bad hunter or wrong because he wishes to hunt colour variants, as long as in doing so, all proper ethics are observed. We also agree with SA Hunt that there is (or there should be) a great element of luck in successfully hunting an exceptional trophy. However, we know they are out there and we know where to look.
    Nduna I'm curious, you operate in RSA from what I can see but you say you abhor the idea of canned hunts. Is the hunting in your area not fenced?

  5. #5
    By South African law, if an outfitter wishes to host hunts for International guests, all year round, then he must have an external fence. So yes, we have external fences, around vast areas. In fact, it is probably the most expensive outfitter set up cost. Within our external fence, the animals are free to roam where they will. Is that "Canned Hunting"? I guess it depends on how you define "Canned Hunting". I would define it as where animals are kept in a paddock or a cage and just before the client arrives, they are let out into an unfamiliar area, where they are then shot whilst disoriented. A practice, as I said, I abhor. The same goes for our concessions. Our European guy manages 4000 acres of Scottish forestry, much of which is fenced. Would his hunting in UK be described as canned? I don't think he thinks so. We do not consider for a moment that we provide "Canned Hunting" of any type. Therefore we feel free to abhor it.
    www.ndunahuntingsafaris.com Facebook

    Tel: +44(0)7866-571180 david@nduna.co.za

    Official RSA Outfitter to Realtree International Pro Staff & Team Wild

  6. #6
    Game farms that are fenced does not constitute canned hunting. On a properly and ethically managed game farm it is not easy to hunt. You must work for your animal and yes the profesionals in RSA do know what they are doing. Please remember that the animals on a gamefarm are living there year in and year out, they know every bit of the property, they are constantly being hunted by Leopard and other predators, they are everywhere. We must also remember that African animals have been hunted for ages, by predators and by human beings, long before Europians set foot in Africa. Animals will flee instictively if they see movement, hear a small noise or smell something suspicious. The fact that there is a fence around them also does not mean they cannot get out, I have personally wittnesed Kudu and Eland jumping fences, kudu cows and Impalas also know how to creep through fences, like many other animals.

    Canned hunting is when an animal is kept in a very small enclosure and hunted in that enclosure, or an animal is kept in a small enclosure and is freed a day before it is hunted. It is all about the chance that an animal has to escape death. Canned is when a animal have absolutely no chance to escape and that given animal is 100% going to get killed. Other unethical practises are put and take, where animals are delivered on the farm a day or two before the hunter arrives, the animal does not know the area or the escape routes. Hunting animals at a feeding through when they are fed at specific times of the day is another unethical practise.


    Fences in Africa are not only wire fences. In many countries areas are burnt to encourage the grass to form new soft growth, animals are atracted to this areas and they are hunted on this areas, destuction of an animals natural habitat also creates fences. I think it is about ones personal ethics that makes the difference. I have on many occations stalked animals and they heard, smelled or saw me and they were gone. It might sound easy to hunt on a fenced property, but I can guarentee that it is not always as easy as it sounds. The size of the property, the denseness of the vegetation and topography also plays a very big role in the success of a hunt.

  7. #7
    Gents

    I'm aware of how things work in RSA. I also beliece there is no meaningful definition of 'canned hunting' just opinion. It's also a discussion that should be had face to face over a few cold beers and probably not on an internet forum.

    My comments were made as I'm surprised at ndunas comments about no management of 'designer trophies' in their fenced areas. Did all four springbok colours occur naturally? As well as both blesbok colours? You must be very lucky if that is the case. I'm surprised there is no 'management' of these as you are a business. And as your copper springbok are 25% or so more expensive than other outfitters at $1500 each going by your website I was trying to see the logic. I hope that makes sense?

    As for Scotland, a 4000 acre fenced forest is not very appealing in all honesty. I've just returned from hunting reds on a forest around 2000 acres but with no fences. At the top of the hill I could see many reds all around and beyond our boundary. Truly free animals. I hope fenced forests in Scotland don't increase in popularity. I'd be interested to know what effect inbreeding has on the deer population in a 4000 acre fenced area over time.

    Just so there is no confusion I have hunted a fenced area in RSA. It is absolutely huge with self sustaining and truly wild animals on there.

  8. #8
    MJ75,

    I've seen large herds of white and common Springbok in the Karoo and in Namibia. Wild and not interbreeding.
    Black tend to be smaller groups and using different habitat, again, not interbreeding.

    The copper that I've seen are a local darkening in the Karoo in common herds.

    Common, White and Black Springbok have always been seen from a DNA perspective as sub species not just colur variants.

    Stan

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by smullery View Post
    MJ75,

    I've seen large herds of white and common Springbok in the Karoo and in Namibia. Wild and not interbreeding.
    Black tend to be smaller groups and using different habitat, again, not interbreeding.

    The copper that I've seen are a local darkening in the Karoo in common herds.

    Common, White and Black Springbok have always been seen from a DNA perspective as sub species not just colur variants.

    Stan

    Interesting, I've only seen common and black. The black springbok were amongst a herd of common springbok in the eastern cape. If they are a different sub species, what are the various scientific names for white, black and copper? I know common (aka cape springbok) are Antidorcas marsupialis and the Kalahari springbok is a larger sub species classified as Antidorcas marsupialis hofmeyri, the Angolan springbok Antidorcas marsupialis angolensis. But wondered what the other three (black, white and copper) are?

    Are you sure they are a valid sub species? They will have been classified if they are. I've read that they are 'sports'. As you know this is something very different to an actual genuine sub species. I've also read that there is a lot of investment taking place to breed these to fullfil market demands. Hence me starting the thread. I really wanted to hear what other hunters thought about this.
    Last edited by MJ75; 28-08-2012 at 20:41.

  10. #10
    All I know is what I've seen happening in the areas I've been in. The people I stay with don't do anything other than massively cull. Common and White don't mix. Maybe that's what maintains the aberration.

    Stan

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