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Thread: Breeding and buying Scenthounds

  1. #1

    Breeding and buying Scenthounds

    Let me present some facts once again at the risk of boring you.
    Most of this post regards BMH's as these are more prevalent in this country but the breeding bit is the same for all dogs.

    1 I have a strong interest in the both HS and BMH. Why, because I think the latter breed has not been well looked after in the UK and there is a need in the UK for good tracking dogs.

    2 People whose opinion I respect tell me that the urge to make money by some early breeders was more important than anything else.

    3 Also, in the post-communist era in Poland there was, so I am told, confusion as to which pedigrees were "valid" ie would have been accepted by the International tracking organization, the ISHV.

    THERE IS, SO I AM TOLD, AT PRESENT ONLY ONE SOCIETY IN POLAND ACCEPTED BY THE ISHV.

    4 As a result of this confusion dogs were bred from that should not have been used and most of the polish BMH’s I have seen would not pass the confirmation test issued by the German BMH Society. In my view it is wrong to breed from these dogs.

    5 In case people get confused; the confirmation test has nothing to do with the tracking tests that a BMH must also pass in Germany before you can breed from your hound.

    6 The Kennel Club appears to have accepted all polish pedigrees as valid and exchanged them for UK ones. The Polish ones were than destroyed by them so the Kennel Club tells me.

    7 As a result all of the BMH in this country I have seen, they virtually all come from Poland, should in my view only be breed from, if at all, after the most careful attention to

    A The pedigree
    B The confirmation
    C The parents ability to work (There are no trials as yet in the UK to judge this so it is hearsay about practical work that will have to do)

    What I have written above is, I hope, now common knowledge.

    But what still does surprises me is that some people disagree to what I would call the basic rule

    Do not breed from a dog unless you are positive about ABC and if you post a dog for sale than accompany it with these facts.

    Some further points.

    I read aboutBazabgs. Again continental friends tell me that some of the posters on that polish site have been a bit “creative”; so in the matter of pedigrees I am told to only trust those issued by the Polish Society accepted by the ISHV.

    And for reasons stated above the UK Kennel Club pedigrees should certainly not be accepted as gospel. (Also read the warning about accuracy on the Bazabgs site)

    Some people seem to think that I invented all the above. What I am simply doing is putting into English the recommendations, rules and regulations of the German Tracking Clubs, no more no less.
    And for those of you who think they know better or think that UK tracking is “different”;(no, no April 1 joke, they exist) I can only draw your attention to the fact that the German BMH Society together with its cousin the HS Society havetracked well over 1 million (1’000’000) animals since their creation. I would argue that by now they should by now know what they are doing!

    Therefore I follow what they recommend, no more no less.

    To sum up,what I hope to achieve is to create in the UK a group of Scenthounds that are as good as the German ones, if not better. It is doable but it will take a fair amount of time.
    In themeantime I will continue to try and persuade people that before they breed or buy a hound they should at the very least take into consideration the facts above.
    No more no less.
    PS
    If after this anybody still wants a BMH or an HS pup with the internationally accepted papers send me a post; I’ll see what I can do. (And for the suspicious readers; no, I do not make any money out of it and yes, there will be conditions on the sale.)
    Last edited by barongcw; 03-09-2012 at 18:49.

  2. #2
    I fear that people in UK know(or think they know)better Baron.
    Never mind what a couple of hundred years experience of these dogs tell you.
    Why is it that these dogs are so jealously guarded by continentals.I wonder why?
    The ISHV exists for a reason,that reason is the betterment of working scenthounds.Betterment being working ability,health,conformation and to lower the ratio of inbreeding,when a pedigree is false/incomplete how do you know you are not inbreeding?
    This is the sad thing,in the UK,we can't see the wood for the trees.
    Id love to see people have such hounds in the UK but until we open our eyes and our ears to listen I feel things will continue along a path not conducive to the betterment of a breed.

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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
    I fear that people in UK know(or think they know)better Baron.
    Never mind what a couple of hundred years experience of these dogs tell you.
    Why is it that these dogs are so jealously guarded by continentals.I wonder why?
    The ISHV exists for a reason,that reason is the betterment of working scenthounds.Betterment being working ability,health,conformation and to lower the ratio of inbreeding,when a pedigree is false/incomplete how do you know you are not inbreeding?
    This is the sad thing,in the UK,we can't see the wood for the trees.
    Id love to see people have such hounds in the UK but until we open our eyes and our ears to listen I feel things will continue along a path not conducive to the betterment of a breed.
    Not to worry. What is the saying: You can take a horse to water etc.

    It takes a long time for new ideas to be accepted but I guess in the end some people who see and hear what these hounds can do will say: I want one like that.

    If people breed with their dogs knowing full well the potential consequences of non-confirmation or a dodgy pedigree that is their decision. And do not forget, they might be lucky.

    What I would hate is somebody spending his hard earned cash and then not getting what he though he had. A properly pedigreed dog whose ancestors have been selected for generations to make tracking not only a pleasure but also highly successful with very little risk of inherited desease.

  4. #4
    What then are you conclusions as to what should be done with the BMHs that are in the UK as at present and are out day in day out working with deer managers, tracking and recovering wounded beasts?
    "Creativity" and down right fraud exists in all worlds of pedigree breeding, anywhere where man and money are involved.
    Who are these people in the UK who think they know better so us buyers of BMhs and HS can avoid them?
    Is there actual factual truth in all these pieces of inforamtion told to you by friends or peole who you (Baron) respect or is it just hearsay. If we Brits are to make the choice to buy dogs from a specific source what are the facts.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza View Post
    What then are you conclusions as to what should be done with the BMHs that are in the UK as at present and are out day in day out working with deer managers, tracking and recovering wounded beasts?
    "Creativity" and down right fraud exists in all worlds of pedigree breeding, anywhere where man and money are involved.
    Who are these people in the UK who think they know better so us buyers of BMhs and HS can avoid them?
    Is there actual factual truth in all these pieces of inforamtion told to you by friends or peole who you (Baron) respect or is it just hearsay. If we Brits are to make the choice to buy dogs from a specific source what are the facts.
    My conclusion is that I would not breed from most of the BMH I have seen. I would just enjoy them till the end of their life.
    As you do a lot of stalking you are ideally placed to ask Widu for a BMH pup approved by the German Society or if you want a HS pup I can probably help. But there would be conditions on training and breeding.

    Agree with you that fraud exists everywhere but the fact that German HS with sing and dance papers are sold by breeders for Euro 700 whilst people in the UK make you pay 1'000 for a hound without a proper pedigree indicates to me there are honest breeders about. The problem is that the HS Society is so scared to give a hound to let us call it a puppy farm breeder that it is almost impossible to get one at all. Luckily the Hungarians are more sensible but that is a long drive and the costs of boarding whilst the injections take hold make it more expensive.

    Do not understand your "Who are these people in the UK who think they know better so us buyers of BMhs and HS can avoid them?" Is it joking? If not please expand.

    I speak a few languages but polish is not one of them so I had to rely on third parties but what I write is certainly not "pub gossip" but checked by me from as many sources as I could find. Obviously I tried to get in touch with the Polish Kennel Club but without success as yet but I might have found a way in there via the new chairman of the ISHV. Time will tell.

    My specific interest is HS. The facts are that you can from time to time get pups from Hungary with papers. Now there are various levels of papers but if you have an interest in that breed send me a pm with a phone number and I'll talk you through it.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza View Post
    What then are you conclusions as to what should be done with the BMHs that are in the UK as at present and are out day in day out working with deer managers, tracking and recovering wounded beasts?
    "Creativity" and down right fraud exists in all worlds of pedigree breeding, anywhere where man and money are involved.
    Who are these people in the UK who think they know better so us buyers of BMhs and HS can avoid them?
    Is there actual factual truth in all these pieces of inforamtion told to you by friends or peole who you (Baron) respect or is it just hearsay. If we Brits are to make the choice to buy dogs from a specific source what are the facts.
    In America, I believe, you can buy a German Wirehaired Pointer or you can buy a Deutsch Drahthaar from VDD.
    I see no reason (other than suspicious continentals) to have a similar system here. I'd love to see that happen for GWPs in this country. I really like the German methods for keeping the breeds how they should be.

    Personally, I wouldn't ever contemplate buying one of these scenthounds without speaking to one of these boys that use this site. They know their onions when it comes to these breeds.

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