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Thread: Help. Dogs4Deer

  1. #1

    Help. Dogs4Deer

    I have just spend a happy hour reading “Keeping the Balance”,the NGO magazine. A good read as always. Bravo to the producers.
    BUT I was very concerned to read on page 25 that only 8 people were interested in another Dogs4Deer course.
    Surely most readers will agree that Deerdogs are an important part of stalking as from time to time a deer when shot still moves more than 200 yards and a trained dog is needed. (about 3% of roedeer shot in Germany ie 15’000 out of 500’000 shot annually, move more than 200 yards according to a German survey).
    That means in my view that we are doing something wrong on the course. What is it? The location? The course contents?
    Could I have people’s views on this?

  2. #2
    Speaking for myself baron, I think there are a lot of deerstalkers out there who have a dog of there own that when called upon will find an injured deer.
    Deer dogs they may not be in the true sense of the word, but most of the more serious lads will have a dog they can depend on to get the job done.
    This is not a dig at the true tracking dogs and their trainers, just an observation based on my own needs and time available to train/work a true deer dog ( my gwp has a double duty as a bird dog as well as deer finder).
    I would not want to present my dog at a training day, to have his performance belittled. As he works well for me, and that is all that counts in my book.
    Sinbad
    I wish I was half the hunter my dog thinks I am

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by sinbad View Post
    Speaking for myself baron, I think there are a lot of deerstalkers out there who have a dog of there own that when called upon will find an injured deer.
    Deer dogs they may not be in the true sense of the word, but most of the more serious lads will have a dog they can depend on to get the job done.
    This is not a dig at the true tracking dogs and their trainers, just an observation based on my own needs and time available to train/work a true deer dog ( my gwp has a double duty as a bird dog as well as deer finder).
    I would not want to present my dog at a training day, to have his performance belittled. As he works well for me, and that is all that counts in my book.
    Sinbad
    This is a course organised by the NGO for deerdogs as supposed to scenthounds. An experienced GWP should certainly be able to complete the tracks laid. I was thinking for instance that some tracks could be laid with blood and some without so that participants could choose. As close to reality as possible.
    And I was somewhat surprised to note during the last course that the detailed "investigation of the shotplace", basic knowledge in Germany, is hardly known here let alone the use of the "trickstick" as a scottish participant calls it. They both help you to determine where your deer is hit. You do not have to use them but it is useful to know how if the need ever comes.

    I am worried about the word "belittled". This course is meant as an encouragement with suggestions/questions. "Why are you doing it this way and have you ever considered doing it differently". All we are trying is do is to make handlers think with as a final aim to help them find more deer.

    It is emphatically not a course for a "super trendy expensive german scent hound with all its europeanesque elitism!"

    Hope this helps.

  4. #4
    Baron, the word belittled was a poor choice and I apologise. What I was trying to get across is that, as with most things shooting/stalking related elitism raises its ugly head, and courses aimed at helping people get hijacked and are used by some to showcase there all singing dancing super dog that pisses whiskey or whatever. (field trials for gundogs spring to mind).
    I would enjoy observing a course for deerdogs if there was a course within reasonable travelling distance, and I would make a decision on entering my dog on the day.
    all the best
    Sinbad
    I wish I was half the hunter my dog thinks I am

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by sinbad View Post
    Baron, the word belittled was a poor choice and I apologise. What I was trying to get across is that, as with most things shooting/stalking related elitism raises its ugly head, and courses aimed at helping people get hijacked and are used by some to showcase there all singing dancing super dog that pisses whiskey or whatever. (field trials for gundogs spring to mind).
    I would enjoy observing a course for deerdogs if there was a course within reasonable travelling distance, and I would make a decision on entering my dog on the day.
    all the best
    Sinbad
    No need for apologies.

    Whilst I myself do not mind too much to travel a fair distance without being paid the NGO has recover the greater part of its costs. Hence the need for about a dozen paying people to make it commercially viable.

    If you can find these as well as the use of a room with electricity and a minimum 20 acre area to lay tracks in I'll see what can be done. But do not take this as a fixed offer as it will be finally decided by the NGO not me.

    As for elitism. You will agree that a well trained hound with a lot of experience is of more use than an untrained one. I think it not only useful to have a dog trained to the best of my abilities but also fun. Is that elitism?
    Last edited by barongcw; 03-09-2012 at 16:09.

  6. #6
    Baron, if you truly want to run a "deer dog" day with good attendance then run one for all breeds and all levels. Show several methods and let them try. I fully understand the scent hound training idealogy but the majority of the course attendees may not. You can still have tracks with scent shoes only for the more advanced or adapt dogs. The general public are loath to run a dog at a specialist tracking dog day. Most people do not want to know how poor their dog is, it's human nature and I am sure we all suffer from kennel blindness!!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by deer man View Post
    Baron, if you truly want to run a "deer dog" day with good attendance then run one for all breeds and all levels. Show several methods and let them try. I fully understand the scent hound training idealogy but the majority of the course attendees may not. You can still have tracks with scent shoes only for the more advanced or adapt dogs. The general public are loath to run a dog at a specialist tracking dog day. Most people do not want to know how poor their dog is, it's human nature and I am sure we all suffer from kennel blindness!!
    That is exactly the aim of this course, for all deerdogs not only scenthounds.

    But it is a waste of everybodies time if you turn up with a dog that has never followed a track in its life. The course is meant for stalkers that have a dog they take out from time to time and would like to get advice how to find more deer, not the general public.
    You should practise the basics at home and come with the aim to pick up some useful tips and see what your hound can do and what you need to know to improve its performance.

    Tracking shoes are just a useful tool, nothing else. The aim is to create a situation as close as possible to a real lifetracking.

  8. #8
    I agree with you Baron but if you want bums on seats I think if you can show people the basics first you may get a better response.
    Last edited by Paul 600; 03-09-2012 at 19:13.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by deer man View Post
    I agree with you Baron but if you want bums on seats I think if you can shoe people the basics first you may get a better response.
    I suggest that rather than you spending 50+ petrol you buy

    1 Scent and the Scenting Dog by Syrotuck and
    2 Working with dogs for deer by Sondergaard.

    Both these books will tell you the basics and more than that. Much cheaper.

    Then practice a little and come next year.

    Tracking is so easy that I would have difficulties filling a beginners day. You can start saying: This is a dog and that is a deertrack. The aim is to get the one to follow the other. Once you have grasped that you are already into proper tracking.

  10. #10
    + one on scent and scenting dog by william syrotuck. you can get it on amazon in paperback for less than a tenner.
    not tried the one by sondergaard, but will give it a try.
    I wish I was half the hunter my dog thinks I am

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