Bisley - novice under instruction / guest

MauserM03

Well-Known Member
Afternoon all,

I'm heading down to Bisley this Saturday (do PM me if you are too) and wanted to take along a non-shooting friend to try and get him interested in the sport. He doesn't have any full-bore experience, nor an FAC and certainly not a shooter certification card. I have all three of course, the latter being through BASC (who have booked the time on the range for me).

The Bisley range regulations state that spectators need ear protection and must stay behind the firing point; fair enough.

However, they also contain the below provision, which appears to permit a novice to shoot under my supervision. It would be great if I could actually allow my pal to shoot under my instruction, as he'd take a lot more from the day.

Does anyone have experience of this ? My BASC contact is out of the office until Thursday and it would be great to get an answer before then.

Many thanks,

Mauser M03

EXTRACT FROM RANGE REGULATIONS
All users of NRA ranges (other than those engaged in single shot .22” rimfire shooting inpractices governed by the rules of the NSRA) must be in possession of a current Certificateof Safety and Competence, or be a novice being coached or certified on a one-to-one basisby the holder of such a certificate. Such a certificate is only valid if it bears the signature ofthe individual’s Club Chairman or the CE of the NRA. The certificate must be valid for allthe firearms for which the user intends to fire on Bisley ranges. The certificate must beproduced to the Range Office staff when signing-in as an individual shooter. RCOs must​
certify (see regulation 5) that all members of their group will comply with the above.
 
Hi, M03, Took my daughter down a couple of years back. Phoned the range office beforehand to confirm. All well and they didn't check my FAC or Shooter Certificate on arrival.

Hope you have an enjoyable day.
 
Possibly one of those questions you wish you hadn't asked. . .
I completely agree that from their published range regulations it appears it's OK to do this. However this is contradicted by information on the NRA's FAQ page:
Can I use the Bisley ranges if I am not an NRA member?
You may only use Bisley Ranges, if you are not a Full Member of the NRA, if you are a member of an affiliated Club or a guest of an Affiliated Club on an official Affiliated Club Guest Day. You can also shoot here on one of our ‘Open Days’

Can I bring a guest to shoot if I am an NRA member?
Unfortunately not, each club is limited to 12 guest days per year, the NRA - as the Governing Body of civilian shooting in the UK as well as being Club - uses it’s guest days for corporate events.

Up to you to decide whether to follow the Range Regulations or the NRA's FAQ's.
Triffid
 
Crikey, ok thank you both for the helpful replies.

Triffid, technically I would argue that the Q&A are (a) over-ridden by the range regulations, which are clear that one can and (b) the Q&A are only referring to the guests of NRA members, rather than those of members of an affiliated club (BASC) so are not applicable in any event, but the reality is it will come down to the discretion of the range office / individual range control officer on the day, with whom I am sure there will be not a lot of point arguing...

I'll ask nicely when I'm down there and see how I get on.

In the meantime, any other responses most welcome.
 
MauserM03

From what you've posted it does not appear that the circumstances described satisfy criteria for borrowing a rifle in connection with HO Approved Club activities. To save quoting chapter & verse take a look at Firearms Law guidance to police Ch18 - 18.2 which deals with HO Approved Clubs. Remember should an incident occur with your novice, Insurance, Range Competency and FAC may be null & void and up for grabs - However there is an NRA Open Day at Bisley on Saturday 8th September, check with them they may still have some tickets and your novice could shoot a variety of firearms lawfully.

Good Luck

Oracle
 
Thanks Oracle - nice name by the way - that is a really useful guide and I have saved down for future reference.

With respect though, I am not sure that Ch18 is relevant. Ch18 deals with the circumstances in which a member of an approved club may take possession and control of firearms without an FAC; be that through the club or from another member. It appears to me to create an exemption designed to allow individuals to shoot unsupervised within the controlled confines of a club, something which would ordinarily require the possession of an FAC. For example, it does not - from a quick review - stipulate that the exemption is conditional upon individual's being supervised on a one-on-one basis. In the situation I describe, the novice would always be under my supervision and control and thus the firearm would never be out of my possession as such term is treated for the purposes of firearms law. It also appears to cut directly across the Range Regulations, which were - presumably - drafted with this guidance in mind, so it would surprise me that the two talk at cross purposes.

This is just based off my reading of the rules and the guidance though; it sounds like you may have more practical experience so I would value your further input.

I will also need to check the insurance point; that to me looks like a separate issue.

Many thanks !
 
Oracle,

To follow-up, is this not just a case of the application of the "Estate Exemption", albeit within the context of the rules and regulations of the particular "private premises" being shot over (i.e. the range) ?

All help, thoughts, guidance much appreciated.

Mauser M03

Borrowed rifles on private premises​
6.16​
Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables aperson to borrow a rifle from the occupierof private premises and to use it on thosepremises in the presence of either theoccupier or their servant without holding afirearm certificate in respect of that rifle. Itshould be noted that this gives slightly moreflexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle thanis permissible with the use of a shot gunas described in paragraph 6.14, in that theborrowed rifle can also be used in thepresence of the servant of the occupier.However, the occupier and/or their servantmust hold a firearm certificate in respect ofthe firearm being used, and the borrower,who must be accompanied by the certificateholder (whether it is the occupier or theirservant), must comply with the conditionsof the certificate. These may include asafekeeping requirement and, in some cases,territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the1968 Act defines “premises” as including anyland. The effect of the provision is to allowa person visiting a private estate to borrowand use a rifle without a certificate. Theexemption does not extend to persons underthe age of 17 or to other types of firearm.There is no notification required on theloan of a firearm under these circumstances.A borrowed rifle should not be specificallyidentified as such on a “keeper’s” or“landowner’s” firearm certificate. The term“in the presence of” is not defined in lawbut is generally interpreted as being within
sight and earshot.
 
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Mauser I don't think that the "estate rifle" exemption is appropriate in this instance and as Triffid suggested it would be better to check with the range office at Bisley first, their contact details are on the NRA website.
 
Mauser, rest assured, what you're thinking of doing would be illegal. The range regs tell you that you are allowed to coach a novice, but the law states when that would be allowed.
 
Many thanks to both for your helpful feedback.

I guess the point I am struggling with is that having read both the law and the home office guidance to those who enforce it - the police - it appears that what I am proposing is perfectly within the rules.

I do have a call in to the range office at Bisley that I will follow up on in the morning, but the reality is that they cannot offer legal advice; they can just speak to their own rules and regulations that overlay on top of legislation. If they say no then that is the end of the matter as it is up to them to control who may shoot over their land as a matter of contract. However, if they say yes then it concerns me that a number of well informed members of the forum think I could be in an exposed position -legally- as a consequence of that.

I will speak to a barrister friend of mind who specialises in firearms law but of course invite further feedback from the forum. I will also report back my findings as this may be useful to others.

Mauser M03
 
Mauser it's not simply NRA range regulations that are the relevant point here but more the limitations under which Home Office approved clubs operate. There is a section in the guidance to police notes that lay out the restrictions and exemptions under which all approved clubs must operate. BASC is regarded as an approved club and as such may book range space at Bisley for the benefit of their members but not their members guests unless on a recognised guest day.
 
Mauser,

I appreciate where you are coming from - but as an NRA RCO - I can tell you point blank it will not be allowed. There is no way around this apart from on official guest days, unless your friend was to become a Club or NRA member in advance, even then, they are not permitted to shoot on their first visit.

Mike
 
Speaking as the owner of a private range, a HME RCO and chairman of a home office approved club on site, I have come across this on many occasions. What the OP is suggesting, at least on my range is definitely not legal. Shooting by non members is very tightly controlled however provisions are made under the members guest days afforded to all HO approved clubs and even then restrictions apply as I recently found out when holding my Mauser/Swarovski open day, all guests must be known to a member of the club or must be a member of an external organisation (I believe the Scouts and WI are mentioned in HO guidance) it is the latter which many clubs at Bisley operate under when hosting corporate days, on my open day all visitors had to be a member of an external organisation such as BASC, BDS even the RAC would technically qualify. Anyone who comes to the range who is a non FAC holder may borrow my personal rifles for training purposes with non expanding/target ammunition for the purposes of target shooting which my FAC clearly states - but it is my land and range and therefore the Estate rifle rule does cover me, a customer at the range cannot allow a friend to borrow his or her firearm unless the friend has it on their FAC as well. Club members may use club rifles and borrow other club members firearms, but only club members.

However, a week prior to my open day I received a call from my local FEO whose jurisdiction the range falls under who had had it brought to his attention that what I was proposing was not in line with HO guidance. It was only after many worried phone calls to BASC, the HO and the NRA that I put the external organisation suggestion to the police and which was accepted. Whilst speaking with both BASC and the NRA it became clear that the NRA can do things that other ranges can't ie.Bisley live, due to the fact that they are the governing body but whether this covers what the OP is suggesting is debatable. Simply put, what the OP is suggesting is not allowed under HO guidance unless the day in question is a members guest day or unless the NRA have an operating procedure specifically afforded to them by the HO.

HME.
 
Farcical.

we have allowed ourselves to be tied up in the usual political and legal b0ll0cks!

please tell me what legal difference there is between this chap coaching his mate on Monday which would be illegal, but coaching his mate on Tuesday is fine because it is a "guest day"!?

any amount of idiots out there can shoot their friends rifle in a unenclosed environment when stalking/shooting
but on a HO approved range, possibly one of the most over engineered and legislated areas in the country it would be unlawful or "unsafe" for a novice to use a firearm whilst in the immediate proximity of an experienced user and under the supervision of an RCO!?


just to through some crap into the mix here.
I have shot on a MOD range where I used a rifle that was not on my certifcate. Was that unlawful? not aware of it being a guest day...

how on earth do we perpetuate the sport if we can not bring people into contact with it?
 
Farcical.

we have allowed ourselves to be tied up in the usual political and legal b0ll0cks!

please tell me what legal difference there is between this chap coaching his mate on Monday which would be illegal, but coaching his mate on Tuesday is fine because it is a "guest day"!?

any amount of idiots out there can shoot their friends rifle in a unenclosed environment when stalking/shooting
but on a HO approved range, possibly one of the most over engineered and legislated areas in the country it would be unlawful or "unsafe" for a novice to use a firearm whilst in the immediate proximity of an experienced user and under the supervision of an RCO!?


just to through some crap into the mix here.
I have shot on a MOD range where I used a rifle that was not on my certifcate. Was that unlawful? not aware of it being a guest day...

how on earth do we perpetuate the sport if we can not bring people into contact with it?

We don't make the rules but have to abide by them however farcical. For instance, if, God forbid, I allowed a non FAC holder access to expanding ammunition and an accident occurred, I would face criminal prosecution as I have broken the law, on the other hand, if a similar accident happened with target ammunition I haven't broken the law and the matter is no longer criminal! Nuts eh?
 
Bewsher - a very valid point. My pal may not now attend on Saturday; that is a potential loss to our sport, whichever way one looks at it.
 
remind them that when they are looking for new members!

It is the Home Office you have to remind and not the clubs so no need to go off on one as regards the clubs. The clubs/ranges have to abide by and be seen to abide with the law and the various regulations under which approved status may be granted if they are to retain that status and benefit from certain exemptions. The exemptions include club members not requiring a firearms certificate if they shoot on approved ranges under the control of the club (simplified - many conditions apply). Yes it does cause problems for some clubs to atract new members because you have to jump through all sorts of hoops first. The rules also specifically prevent clubs from operating day membership schemes but do permit a limited number of guest days (12 in a year) but the police must be informed of any such days at least 2 days before hand and the persons attending must be known to the club or are members of a particular group or organisation. In very simple terms and under normal conditions non certificate holders cannot simply turn up at a range and expect to shoot.

Amendment.
I will give you another true scenario to ponder. A new member joins our rifle club, he has a firearms certificate and owns a .22 rifle which he uses for vermin control. The conditions on his certificate do not permit him to use his rifle to shoot targets and only allow him to zero on named ground (closed certificate). Legally once he has joined the club as a member he can use club guns and the guns of other club members on the range but he cannot use his own because his certificate conditions do not permit it. However other club members would be able to use his rifle using suitable non expanding ammunition and using the exemptions available to H.O. approved clubs.
This truly happened and was resolved by varying the conditions on the guys certificate to allow range use. It was pointed out that zeroing the rifle on an approved range was obviously preferable to zeroing in the fields that he has permission to shoot over. In actual fact the situation was slightly more complicated originally as the rifle that this guy owned originally was in .17hmr and there was the additional complication of expanding ammunition or rather the lack of availability of suitable .17hmr ammunition for target shooting.
Range operators and club officials really do need to keep on their toes if they are not to fall foul of the restrictive and overly complicated firearms laws in our country.
 
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