home load certificate entries

musty

Well-Known Member
what does every one do about showing ammunition use on thier certs.

the guy at the reloading suppliers sujested that i make the entries myself as i make the home loads.

any sujestions?


steve
 
I have re-loaded bullets for over 40 years and have NEVER put an entry on my cert .
Our Police Firearms Dept. are aware that I re-load as I once had a visit from them to ask if anyone had given me any bullets as I had more in stock than the last time my FAC was in for a variation .
I took the Sergeant downstairs to my workshop and showed him my set-up .
Nowadays bullet heads are entered by the shop when purchased and providing we are sensible and do not have numbers of loaded bullets in excess of certificate allowance all should be fine .
Our local police are sensible and do not count bullet heads as ammunition .

HWH.
 
This seems an interesting subject and does seem to be different depending on what region you are in.

Im in Thames Valley and my local supplier will supply me as many Expanding Heads as i want...but dont put them on my licence...

But i fill in the bullet numbers as and when i reload...

Is this the same as anywhere else..????..

what do your regions ask for????

Richard
 
Richard P.
That seems to be a very lax and totally unsuitable approach by both the dealer and your Police .

If you were a terrorist you would be able to produce unlimited quantities of ammunition without any means of control or check .

HWH.
 
Up here in Cumbria some gun shops enter expanding heads on to my FAC and some don't but they all enter them in there own dealer book .
Last year i was down at reloading solutions in Oxfordshire and was shown the home office guide lines for expanding heads and it did not say that you have to have them entered on your FAC.
If you want to put them on your self so be it but i don't and nether do i put home loads on to my certificate . I have reloaded for years and never had a problem from any of the police or civilian firearm officers
who have checked my renewals if they have asked i tell them i reload and if they want they can have a look at my reloading bench ?.

As for Terrorist do you think that they would bother about applying for a FAC in the first place . if i wanted a lot of bullet heads the technology to make cast or full metal jacket or soft point rifle rounds is freely available
and not that hard to do.
I make my own bullet heads for some of my rifles just for fun .

PS.
I reload for .22 Hornet ,308 ,303, 357, .444 Marlin

Bob
 
Roedinator said:
when i buy mine they enter the heads on my ticket

So are you only allowed to buy your stated quantity as on your F.A.C or can you buy as many as you like..??

Richard
 
There is no legal requirement for a dealer to enter the sale of expanding or other heads onto your licence. It's purely one police force being more 'itchy' than another - the dealer wishing to apease them.

One of my dealers does and two others don't.

It is however his responsibility to confirm that you have the authority to buy expanding and that he does not sell you more than you are allowed to purchase.
 
Most dealers add entries for bullets onto the certificate, so buy 200 bullets - reload them and enter them again = 400!

All reloading does is add a case, power and primer behind the bullet, if it on your certificate no problem, if it isn't are you selling or transferring them - that the criteria used to enter them onto a certificate.
 
"It is however his responsibility to confirm that you have the authority to buy expanding and that he does not sell you more than you are allowed to purchase."

But thats what seems a bit grey as like i said in my area you can buy any quantity you wish the arguement being that a bullet is not a bullet until its completely reloaded.

So are you only suposed to be able to buy the number your F.A.C says or not..????

Thanks

Richard
 
richard as i understand it and someone will have to correct me
if im wrong
you are allowed to buy the amount stated on your ticket
the same being as if you were going in to buy factory ammo
i personally like it put on my ticket so they can see what your using
good reason and all that .
i do have a good relationship ( no not that type ) :lol: with my flo
im in avon and somerset regards pete .
 
Roedinator said:
richard as i understand it and someone will have to correct me
if im wrong
you are allowed to buy the amount stated on your ticket
the same being as if you were going in to buy factory ammo
i personally like it put on my ticket so they can see what your using
good reason and all that .
i do have a good relationship ( no not that type ) :lol: with my flo
im in avon and somerset regards pete .

Thanks Pete

Yes it does seem shop/dealer specific as in my area Reloading Solutions will only sell you your stated quantity on your F.A.C but doesnt enter them on your F.A.C but a shop 10 miles up the road will sell you a thousand heads but insists on entering them on your F.A.C.

Very inconsistant indeed...... :eek:

Richard
 
scotsgun said:
There is no legal requirement for a dealer to enter the sale of expanding or other heads onto your licence.

Exactly right. If anyone insisted on entering inert heads on my FAC, I would not be using them again. Next they will be wanting primers entered too!

Once the RFD has seen you have authority to purchase expanding ammo, he can sell you the heads in any amount he likes.

It is YOUR responsibility not to load more than you are authorised to keep!

I know some people who only have authority for 50 rounds of expanding ammo. It would be virtually impossible for them to buy the heads in boxes of just 50 and even then they would have to load, and then shoot, all 50 rounds before buying more heads! Totally un-workable! Like me, they buy heads in 500's and then load only what they are allowed to possess.

It is also very dodgy ground entering the loaded ammo on your own FAC. I am not aware of any time it is legal to write on your own FAC. You can write on someone else's FAC (when selling them a firearm etc). I had a load of aggro when I wanted to write on my own FAC as I had changed the magazine on a shotgun from a 3 shot to a 9 shot. I had to send off my FAC to get it added in the end.

I can find nothing in the Firearms Act, any Ammendments, or the VCR Bill about expanding head limits or entry on to FAC's. Even the Home Office Guidance to Police (2006) which the Police use as their "Bible" does not recommend it.
If anyone can point me to a legal reference, I would be very grateful and I could then advise the members of my club that it would effect.
 
musty
no need to enter ammo that you have loaded on to your certificate.
With regard to the other matters raised, each force issues differing guidance to dealers within their own areas. I know that for instance Thames valley have required reloading solutions to make an entry in their dealer logs of expanding "missiles" sold and that Gwent require the same. However, in some areas it is required that all purchases of "expanding missiles" are entered on to the purchaser’s certificate and woe betides any dealer who doesn't comply.
If you belong to BASC give them a call and discuss the matter as I would have to disagree with some of the advice given on this thread so far, and can see it causing problems if followed. You cannot purchase as many expanding bullets as you like at any time because you have to stay within the limited numbers on your certificate. "Expanding missiles" are regarded by most police forces as counting the same as assembled ammunition, and until a court makes the ultimate decision perhaps at the expense of someone’s certificate or even liberty it is better to play safe than sorry.
Anyone who has a certificate that only permits the purchase of less 100 at any one time is asking for trouble should they decide to reload, and should have their limit increased at the earliest opportunity to a reasonable number.
I think part of the problem is that some dealers are unsure of the "law" and rules on expanding missiles and are not as diligent as they should be, but ultimately it will be them that loose their livelihood.
 
Target bullets do not count towards your allowance and you can buy as many as you want.

Expanding bullets do count towards your allowance and you can buy upto your allowance.
The RFD has to record the sale for their purposes but there is no requirement to record the sale on your FAC.
Some forces ask RFDs to record the sale on the purchasers FAC, but there is no legal basis for this.
A policy perhaps?

This is why lawyers earn lots of money.
 
Just as confirmation of what has been said earlier I think the relevent sections of the Home Office - Firearms Law, Guidance to the Police are
Chapter 4 and that refers you to chapter 3.17

This explains about numbers of expanding missiles counting towards your total to possess, and dealers having to make entry in their records not entry on your certificate for the purchase of expanding bullets.
 
Thanks for the ref. 8x57.

Personally I think that the police guidelines doc makes it very clear - a dealer may only sell you expanding bullets/missiles that is equal too or less then the number authorised on your ticket. The items that concern this discussion are defined as:

the actual bullet or missile
itself, not just the complete round of
ammunition (a complete round consists of
the bullet, the cartridge case, the propellant
and the primer).
Ref: Home Office - Firearms Law, Guidance to the Police

It is these (ie any of the above) that are controlled, at the point of purchase; bullet or ready made round.

The sale does not need to be recorded on the purchasers FAC, only in the RFD's register.

I am happy for my expanding heads to put on my FAC however as it means that the Police do not have an argument over quantity reductions as it clear that I am getting through them.

To me that is pretty clear and I would not want to poke that sleeping dog... :eek:

Cheers

Chops
 
Musty.
Having reloaded since 1973 (pistol) and now loading centre fire. I have never written anything on my FAC. I have written on someone else's FAC when selling etc.

My local RFD's tend to be very expensive when it comes to reloading supplies so when visiting family down south I make a point of stocking up. On the last trip I purchased my limit of Section 5 (prohibited ammunition)bullets and the RFD point blank refused to make an entry on my FAC. He claimed to have been told by a Scottish force not to make such entries as they have to keep issuing new FAC as the space on individual FAC is limited. My local RFD however still insist on recording the sale on Table 2 and makes a cross referenced entry in the Ammunition Register.

If you read the Certification entry it is clearly written that the seller completes this entry and not the holder of the FAC.

To cover a matter raised by a recent reply. Paragraph 2 on your FAC clearly states expanding ammunition AND expanding missles. You are limited to what you are entitled to on your FAC. Orginally I was permitted 100 possess 120. Having started to reload centre fire I wrote to my local FLO and didn't get a reply. When I rang them my request was sitting on the Firearm Licensing Managers in tray. Apparantly it was too difficult to be dealt with. My question of "how many may I possess" was meet with the response "how many do you want"? I went for 500/600 and received my FAC the next morning. D&G Police have always been most helpful but I firmly believe that if I were ever stupid enough to breach a condition on my FAC I would be prosecuted or my FAC would be revoked.

Is it worth the hassle of losing you FAC. If you believe you need greater authority then it is only a letter to your FLO requesting an increase in your authority levels. More importantly it is not a variation so no fee is charged.

Just to find the police interpretation I rang D&G Police and they stated

"Ammunition including expanding ammunition and expanding missles are dealt with as one". It follows from their interpretation that bullets count as loaded rounds. I wasn't really surprised by the response as classifying expanding ammunition in the same category as machine guns (Sec 5) just about sums up our legislators.

It is unfortunate that almost everyone agrees the situation is beyound belief and BASC told me that the next ammendment to the legislation will revert back to the old system where a bullet is a bullet not a round. Most Governments tend to pass more firearm legislation than they repeal so please do not hold your breath on this one.

However, until it does be very careful ladies and gentlemen.

Enjoy your stalking.

Spiker.
 
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