Panacur

deerhungry

Well-Known Member
Can anyone give the mixture for Panacur with water I am wanting to worm the pheasants I have had the mixture in the past but lost it ,I will use 2.5% Panacur which is used for sheep.
 
I use 10 % as opposed to the 2.5 stuff and use 5ml per gallon of water .the coughing won't stop for a couple of days till the dead worm can eventually be chucked up ,been a bad year for one of my pens this year .
 
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Just FYI what you are proposing is illegal. It's either Flubenvet in feed or a vet prescription.

I suppose it is a case of wether you let your birds die or treat them
birds with such worms/gapes don't really feed but they do drink
flubenvet is expensive and only works if you catch it early enough
at what point do you get a vet involved ... At what sort of cost is that
and what would you recommend if the birds are coughing but not eating??
 
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I suppose it is a case of wether you let your birds die or treat them
birds with such worms/gapes don't really feed but they do drink
flubenvet is expensive and only works if you catch it early enough
at what point do you get a vet involved ... At what sort of cost is that
and what would you recommend if the birds are coughing but not eating??

Seriously what is the cost of a driven bird presented to guns? £25? More less?

If you brought me a freshly dead bird or a sick one and it was sacrificed for a post mortem [assuming it was something simple like gapeworm] the diagnosis could be confirmed and I could sell you a product that is designed to be administered through the drinking water for not much more than £100 (less than the cost of 5 birds).

All legal and above board. More importantly you are using a product that will be effective. Sheep drench not designed to be administered through drinking water.

Is that expensive? I don't think so. Total waste of money if something else is wrong with the birds or by miss-using medicines the worms become resistant (especially likely if you under-dose).
 
A post mortem and medication for a good pen of birds for not much more than £100. Not at my vets.
 
Thousands of keepers use panacur and will continue to do so ,flub is expensive in feed and the active ingredient fembendasole is the same in both ,agree it is illegal but then so is emtril and that is still widely used .my birds look so much better for being gape free it is a orrible little worm or should I say worms being male and female .i am no expert but if panacur gets rid of the little horror then i will carry on using it .
Regards
norma
 
Have used panacure for years to good effect providing they wil still taking water in the pen.But can be a pain if you got another water source near by.
bob
 
Thousands of keepers use panacur and will continue to do so ,flub is expensive in feed and the active ingredient fembendasole is the same in both ,agree it is illegal but then so is emtril and that is still widely used .my birds look so much better for being gape free it is a orrible little worm or should I say worms being male and female .i am no expert but if panacur gets rid of the little horror then i will carry on using it .
Regards
norma

+1. Treat all my birds with panacur shortly after they arrive. No gaps and perfectly healthy birds. Cheaper than flub and works.
 
I'm interested where you get it from. The merchants are only allowed to sell POM-VPS products for use within the confines of the datasheet. Are you all lying and saying you have sheep? Getting it from a sheep farmer via the back door? The SQP supplying the product is also breaking the law.

It is the irresponsible use of wormers that has got us into the ridiculous situation with sheep where there is a huge amount of resistance. Carry on as you are rearing birds in the same pens year on year and you'll get the same problem.
 
We have sheep and a few cattle so get it via that route ,my main pen is 10 yrs old and am considering extending another smaller pen I have to agree the worm build up in the pen is a pain and seems to be worse in a wet summer but I do remember having gapes in the 1st year I built the pen ,having flub in the food would cost another £500 the cost of panacur £82.94 For 1 litre I will let u do the math
cheers
norma
 
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Seriously what is the cost of a driven bird presented to guns? £25? More less?

If you brought me a freshly dead bird or a sick one and it was sacrificed for a post mortem [assuming it was something simple like gapeworm] the diagnosis could be confirmed and I could sell you a product that is designed to be administered through the drinking water for not much more than £100 (less than the cost of 5 birds).

All legal and above board. More importantly you are using a product that will be effective. Sheep drench not designed to be administered through drinking water.

Is that expensive? I don't think so. Total waste of money if something else is wrong with the birds or by miss-using medicines the worms become resistant (especially likely if you under-dose).

In an ideal world that works well
but we don't really live in one
illnesses in pheasants can show and take upto 2 weeks before it developed into a problem giving you a chance to get treatment sorted
sometimes in weather like this year ,3 days and you are too late because they are damp and cold to help add to it all
a £100 is very cheap but then how many birds would that treat out of interest considering we could put 75 litres of water a day per pen and it could be all 5 pens that need treating

but TBH how long from dropping a sick or dead bird off - to a post mortem - to treatment being administered is going to take
my vets about 48 hours min depending on wether they hav a drug or drugs in shop
In the past they hav always gone down the Medicated food route
which is ok if you already hav it on hand but then quite often you need a prescription first of all
which means your birds have to be sick in the first place to warrant it and then if lucky your feed merchant may get it to you with in a week
but it also will be at a price because it will be a tonne order minimum
in the mean time you are loosing birds regardless
and if you are not a commercial shoot
£25+ plus a bird means nothing as each dead bird comes out of your own kitty and costs are never recovered ,
panacur has successfully worked for many years with out harm , can be stored and is easily accessible
It is also a cheap form of treatment which can often be the main problem on an already struggling industry due to red tape and regulations
but then it would be fine if a vet prescribed Panacur in the first place anyway
 
In an ideal world that works well
but we don't really live in one
illnesses in pheasants can show and take upto 2 weeks before it developed into a problem giving you a chance to get treatment sorted
sometimes in weather like this year ,3 days and you are too late because they are damp and cold to help add to it all
a £100 is very cheap but then how many birds would that treat out of interest considering we could put 75 litres of water a day per pen and it could be all 5 pens that need treating

but TBH how long from dropping a sick or dead bird off - to a post mortem - to treatment being administered is going to take
my vets about 48 hours min depending on wether they hav a drug or drugs in shop
In the past they hav always gone down the Medicated food route
which is ok if you already hav it on hand but then quite often you need a prescription first of all
which means your birds have to be sick in the first place to warrant it and then if lucky your feed merchant may get it to you with in a week
but it also will be at a price because it will be a tonne order minimum
in the mean time you are loosing birds regardless
and if you are not a commercial shoot
£25+ plus a bird means nothing as each dead bird comes out of your own kitty and costs are never recovered ,
panacur has successfully worked for many years with out harm , can be stored and is easily accessible
It is also a cheap form of treatment which can often be the main problem on an already struggling industry due to red tape and regulations
but then it would be fine if a vet prescribed Panacur in the first place anyway

Again +!
A few years back one pen was bad. I took a sample bird for post mortem, that took a day. My vet was contacted by persons who did post mortem with results but he did not have the medication in stock. Got it a day later but meantime 3 days had pasted and I was loosing birds big style.
Now it's panacur almost immediately after getting the birds and touch wood I have not lost one to gapes.

Apache, it may well be illegal but apart from that what are the cons for using panacur. You say irresponsible use of use of wormers but what is the difference between this practice and say the keeper who can afford to feed medicated feed from the outset.

My dogs are wormed eery 3 months on the advice of my vet. Is this irresponsibe? Does this build up resistance?
 
Apache, it may well be illegal but apart from that what are the cons for using panacur.

Are we not supposed to be honest upstanding members of society as FAC/SGC holders? I would expect that you'd lose your guns for having a criminal record for drugs offences. You might think you are unlikely to get caught but I know of a case ongoing where a keeper is being investigated for illegal possession of medicines for this very reason (they went looking for other things, but found some sheep wormer).

I think it is quite incredible that you can't see that this is wrong. You don't actually have to wait for everything to start dying before consulting a vet - you might be surprised to find that they can work with you and come up with a plan to stop problems happening.

Sadly none of us can pick and chose which laws we chose to follow. I hate to think how many thousand pounds it costs me each year to comply with the medicines regulations (throwing out open bottles after 28 days, not been able to use human generic products that are identical but a fraction of the cost). We even have to pay for the privilege of getting inspected to make sure we are compliant.

You say irresponsible use of use of wormers but what is the difference between this practice and say the keeper who can afford to feed medicated feed from the outset.

My dogs are wormed eery 3 months on the advice of my vet. Is this irresponsibe? Does this build up resistance?

To the absolute best of my knowledge no-one has done the work to establish the required dose rates for these products against the specific parasites in birds. No one knows how well the product will mix in water. No one knows how long the product will remain stable for once mixed. Equally we are dealing with an animal that is going to be going into the human food chain and no-one has established a suitable withdrawal for the product.

What the lack of information means is we are fumbling around in the dark. The best way of making a parasite resistant is to under-dose with an anthelmintic. Resistance is not 'all or nothing' - there is a gradient and there will be some worms out there with a degree of resistance. If we use wormers at an appropriate concentration then all the worms (including the partially susceptible ones) are killed. If you under-dose then the partially susceptible ones survive and breed. Continue doing this and you increase the proportion or resistant worms in the environment. As these worms breed you get more and more worms carrying wormer resistance genes. As time goes on (and more and more doses are administered) you can get to a situation where worming has very little effect. What are you going to do then? This isn't a fairytale - this is where we are in sheep now.

The parallels with sheep farming work because you have a lot of animals in a confined area consuming food of the floor. The same area is used year after year. There are a large number of animals and that gives a large population of worms that are being exposed at once and the product is used for days at a time that keep the selection pressure on longer. With dogs you are using an effective product at a suitable dose rate (I hope, you don't do them with the sheep Panacur too?) and that will kill all the worms effectively at a single point in time. The proportion of the dog population that is exposed at one time is small. The risk of resistance development in dogs is very much less.

How is this any different when we use products that are designed for the purpose? Well we know what dose rate is needed. We know how long we need to treat for. We know how long the product is stable in feed or water and we know the concentrations that the product reaches in the food or water. This makes it very much more likely that an effective dose is being used (so long as instructions followed). We also know when the birds are fit to eat.

a £100 is very cheap but then how many birds would that treat out of interest considering we could put 75 litres of water a day per pen and it could be all 5 pens that need treating

The product I am thinking of comes in 100g sachets. One sachet will treat 7,000KG of birds. The sachets come in packs of 5 and are usually used for 7 days - for the price I stated you could treat 5 tonnes of pheasants for a week. Do you have a tone of pheasants in each pen?

It is licensed as a poultry/pig product but in cases where birds were not eating it could easily be justified on prescription.

Personally Flubenvet is the best and if started immidiately should work well. In feed shouldn't be that expensive. For pheasants and partridges you don't even need a prescription. If you are not going to take the minimum amount could you not join up and buy with a neighbouring shoot?

It is also a cheap form of treatment which can often be the main problem on an already struggling industry due to red tape and regulations but then it would be fine if a vet prescribed Panacur in the first place anyway

A vet has to prescribe a licensed product first. Otherwise they are breaking the law themselves. That means Flubenvet in feed. If that isn't working or for some reason is not appropriate we can move onto similar products - that would take us to the oral Solubenol (that is same ingredient, but for chickens). Panacur would be way down the list.
 
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