Did I make it too easy??

Shabz

Well-Known Member
Hi all, I recently laid a trail for my GWP to follow. I used half a (red) deer skin, tied to a lead and dragged behind me as I walked. I covered about 300 metres through some young hardwoods over a couple of ditches and onto a clear fell site. I had at least three 90 degree turns in it and 'jumped' the skin over the ditches. I used no blood apart from what may have been on the skin (I can't be arsed to wash a skin). I did cut the bag that the skin had been in open and smear it about to create a 'shot site'

I returned about 3 hours (I wanted to wait four, but it would have been dark) later with the dog and showed her the 'shot site', she had her collar on with a 20m ish check cord attached. I didn't really know what to do with the lead so ended up dropping it and letting her drag it.
she put her nose down and followed the trail exactly all the way to the deer skin without moving more than 50cm maybe from where I'd been.

This was the first time she has ever followed a trail (she's never been needed to find a dead deer either, so really her first ever anything to do with them) and I wasn't really expecting that. Does a deer skin give off too much scent? I'm assuming that scent shoes would leave less scent but can't justify the money for them.

Do I have a really good dog or should a terrier be able to do that?? If that's impressive, then I might go all out and train her properly.
 
Scent overload. You just have a ordinary dog that needs proper training. Start by cutting the tracking lead down to 10 mtrs. Plenty of tips on this site on how to train a dog for deer.
 
Hi all, I recently laid a trail for my GWP to follow. I used half a (red) deer skin, tied to a lead and dragged behind me as I walked. I covered about 300 metres through some young hardwoods over a couple of ditches and onto a clear fell site. I had at least three 90 degree turns in it and 'jumped' the skin over the ditches. I used no blood apart from what may have been on the skin (I can't be arsed to wash a skin). I did cut the bag that the skin had been in open and smear it about to create a 'shot site'

I returned about 3 hours (I wanted to wait four, but it would have been dark) later with the dog and showed her the 'shot site', she had her collar on with a 20m ish check cord attached. I didn't really know what to do with the lead so ended up dropping it and letting her drag it.
she put her nose down and followed the trail exactly all the way to the deer skin without moving more than 50cm maybe from where I'd been.

This was the first time she has ever followed a trail (she's never been needed to find a dead deer either, so really her first ever anything to do with them) and I wasn't really expecting that. Does a deer skin give off too much scent? I'm assuming that scent shoes would leave less scent but can't justify the money for them.

Do I have a really good dog or should a terrier be able to do that?? If that's impressive, then I might go all out and train her properly.

Think Jagare is a bit harsh. How old is the dog?

I liked you describing that the noose was firmly on the trail, that is very good news.

If you have no scent shoes you might try to drag a hoof on a kind of fishing rod in such a way that the dog does not get the smell of your boots. Use the odd bit of blood. If he/she can manage that straight away you got a good hound.
 
shabz i had a pair of scent shoes made for me by a local welder for £35 , would that still be too much of an expence? ill send you a pic of them if you want to see if you can get some made
 
I hadn't thought about having some made. That sounds like a plan.

Thanks baron, the dog isn't young, she's 3 1/2 years old. She's only ever worked birds though. her nose was so close to the ground that i found two ticks on it the next day! I think I'll probably get some shoes and try your fishing rod idea in the meantime. That's the same method I use for training gun dogs to pick up runners.

Dirtdigger, I'll send you my email address via pm so you can send me that photo, thanks!
 
Georges, me harsh? Nah. Direct? possible. If Shabz had done the same trail useing just a hoof then he would have had a promising dog.
Dragging half a red deer skin, a funktionshindrade hund ( google traslate that) could have followed that mass of scent.

Must rush. I'm off out to hunt roe with the teckle. Little frost on the ground and a clear day. No shite secondhand rain from the UK today.
 
Georges, me harsh? Nah. Direct? possible. If Shabz had done the same trail useing just a hoof then he would have had a promising dog.
Dragging half a red deer skin, a funktionshindrade hund ( google traslate that) could have followed that mass of scent.

Must rush. I'm off out to hunt roe with the teckle. Little frost on the ground and a clear day. No shite secondhand rain from the UK today.
thats not second hand rain its scottish dog pish blowing across on the wind (billy connoly)
 
Shabz, for a first time on a laid trail your dog did fantastic!

If anything, you ask any person training deer dogs and they will tell you the trail was in fact quite complex!

What I am finding is short trails, stay of it yourself as much as possible, mark the beginning and as you go along as it is so easy to forget the exact route and when the dog reaches the end don't pack up and go straight home as your pup will begin associate the end of the trail with home time which is counterproductive.

Picture an experienced dog along with a completely inexperienced dog.......coming close to the start of the trail you yourself begin to get excited and get down to the dogs level pointing to the ground. You are now visibly telling the dog there is something here......I find this has worked wonders with my training programme. I use the words hunt em up! Hunt em up! In the snow I have also been able to lay my trails over fox pads.......which the bitch ignores completely.

With blood I have found watering it way way down still works the ticket and I mean 1 parts to 15parts water is still unbelievably strong and my bitch is only 3 months old.

There must always be something at the end.....l lick or rag or be thrown such as a deer leg to mark the end of the trail and as the visual reward.......tons of praise and excitement goes a long way.

On the topic of air scenting, my pup will run frantically to the deer hide on the last 10 feet nose high in the air. In my eyes she found the deer and that is good enough for me.

There is one thing I do in the house though....a game we play were I hold antlers and chase her 2 or 3 steps and then retreat, until she starts barking. I give her a ton of praise every time barks, because if she is ever in a situation where she has a deer at bay and has managed to be off the leash I want to know exactly where she is so I can get there as quickly as possible.

Every man is different, but I will say, ignore the negative criticism you may get on this site or others, if your gut instinct tells you it works then go with it. But most of all enjoy the experience, as there will be nothing more rewarding than the day all the training pays off.
 
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Ronan

This is meant to be constructive do please take it this way and not as a criticism.

I know what you are saying about gut instinct but you could end up doing something continually because it appears as early success, only to be faced with problems in the future. Think about chucking dozens of dummies for a gundog and how pleased some folk get at him retreiving every one straight to hand. Then cannot understand why the dog runs in during its first season and grabs every bird than bounces in sight of it.

It is important that the foundations are laid before building on them. Only today I was speaking to a friend of mine who received a Diploma Of Merit in this years Spaniel championships, and funnily enough that was Anthony's exact words about folk who have wild or poor gundogs.

Jagare is correct. You want the dog to succeed but you also want it to be intrigued with what it is doing to build its confidence and hopefully continued interest and this track was too much in scent and not needed. We have to remember that what we think may be a difficult scent to follow is in reality probably pretty easy for the pup. Half a red skin is way too big. I used half or quarter of a roe to start with and reduced it very quickly to cleave scent alone in scent shoes. Mine still has not had a track laid for her with blood. Ideally you could start with a decent sized piece of skin but gradually reduce it until it is only 6'' across. Then you can start lengthening the time the track is left for before allowing the dog to follow it.

As for not justifying the expense for scent shoes. Best investment you will make in training a dog for tracking deer. I read on another forum a conversation between a couple of experts saying how stupid and ridiculous they are. Really???

They are not used for training a dog for a year and then forgotten about till the next pup comes along. They are a training aid for use all year round.

Only other thing I would ask Shabz is why are you using blood mixed with water?

I am a novice when it comes to training a proper tracking dog but over the last year or so have managed I hope to do things right with guidance from very experienced friends. The above is basically their advice...
 
Jamross I couldn't agree more, especially having trained springers all my life, there is nothing worse than a dog running in, not listening to commands, not stopping when commanded or regardless of the hunting dog it running onto a different scent from the actual game intended to be shot on the day.

I must admit, every springer I had I have had to tweak the training regime as each responded differently to the next. Some would hit cover, some wouldn't, some preferred fur others feather. I can only go off the one deer dog I have had in my entire life, which is the very pup I have now, so I although I am limited to the advice I can offer I must say that if you make deer the dogs life........making this new play stimulus nothing but deer scent, fur, blood, and chopped up organs.......the game itself isn't rocket science and the dog will pick up on what you want it to do.

But at the end of the day, nothing can take the place of real stalking, a real track with a fresh animal at the end of the trail.
 
I think for a first track you both did well, i'm certainly no expert, (although there are plenty on the SD), I have been training my young GWP bitch to track for a couple of months. I started with a fresh Munty skin, this worked well, she found the scent, followed and found it with ease, the scent was fresh,only an hour or so old, she was rewarded and allowed to mouth and shake the skin before I took it away from her with the command "dead", then rewarded with verbal and physical contact "fuss", walked away from the find site at heel, and returned to the truck, home, checked, fed and kenneled. Then I introduced the collar and line on another skin, a CWD that had dried out naturally, same proceedure, this also worked, these exercises have been repeated 2 or 3 times a week over the past couple of months, she has consistantly found the taget, more importantly I have consistantly followed the same proceedure with both the start of the track and the reward at the end, I then used a dried out Munty skin, with the rear lower legs still attached, same proceedure, same result,she found, she was rewarded and returned home, all of the training is carried out on ground that is frequented by other game, rabbits and fox, this scent has been ignored, I recently tried her on an easy fresh blood trail from a Fallow in the snow, her first real track, it was easy and that was the intention, only 15 to 20 mins old, I would have found it with out her as the blood was visable in the snow, but for a first "real" track that was usefull as I could see she was following the exact line, she found it with ease, was a little unsure when she found the dead beast, but only for a second or two, she grabbed it by the neck and shook it until I gave the comand "dead", she released, I gave her the praise she deserved, job done.

I will continue to give her these training exercises, I will reduce the size of the skin, increase the distance, use cleats and give her the oppurtunity to follow up any shot deer that run on, she has shown good natural ability and I am confident that she will make a cracking deerdog and stalking companion. As she grows I will continue to re-enforce the obedience training, along with general gundog training. Time wil tell, but I think that she will be a good alrounder within a year or two, I have never trained a dog for deer work befor, I have trained several for shotgun work, Spaniels and Lab/Springers, all have been very compedent in there work and a pleasure to be out in the field with, years ago I worked lurchers, again all worked well. I believe you have to be consistant in your training method, reward good and ignore bad, don't be to heavy handed, take your time, be patient, don't try to force the dog, with a bit of luck as well you will get what you want from the dog, you get back what you put in. Good Luck.
 
Ronan, you don't need blood. if you must dont dilute and use it sparingly! Only use a small piece of skin and hide whatever you have at the end so the dog can not see it, make it work all the way!
 
Deer man I do exactly that........but if the pup shows excitement at diluted blood, then surely fresh thick blood is an even stronger trail. I can't see the logic in why diluted blood is seen as less useful?
 
Deer man I do exactly that........but if the pup shows excitement at diluted blood, then surely fresh thick blood is an even stronger trail. I can't see the logic in why diluted blood is seen as less useful?

Stronger is not the issue. its just different. This topic has been discussed at length on the SD with input from guys who really know their stuff. There is no need to dilute. You don't need a lot on a trail so if the reason is to make it go further its a waste of time. If ts because it clots up, push it through a sieve, and use clots on the track. They would appear naturally anyway.
 
I am actually doing that already but as I get closer to the end of my blood supply I fill the bottom bit with water just to get the
last of it. I tell you what though, this pup follows pure or watered down blood, makes no difference, she gets there either way!
 
Ronan is diluted blood natural?
Is half a skin dragged along floor natural?
What does a natural track consist of?
You want to train her as close to what she will find in the field as possible...shot deer will not pour out blood mixed with water and they will not normally crawl along the floor on their backs or bellies.
This was what I was saying on the other thread with your pup,deer do not flick out bits of flesh all over the track or in fact blood either,what is the one constant in a track.....
Blood is not always there.
Skin is not always there.
Flesh,most definitely,is not always there.
What is always there?.....
 
Ronan is diluted blood natural?
Is half a skin dragged along floor natural?
What does a natural track consist of?
You want to train her as close to what she will find in the field as possible...shot deer will not pour out blood mixed with water and they will not normally crawl along the floor on their backs or bellies.
This was what I was saying on the other thread with your pup,deer do not flick out bits of flesh all over the track or in fact blood either,what is the one constant in a track.....
Blood is not always there.
Skin is not always there.
Flesh,most definitely,is not always there.
What is always there?.....


Spot on! Get a set of scent shoes if you are serious about learning a dog to track. They will hone the dogs instinct. Cleave marks are the one thing you can guarantee are at the shot site, deer don't fly in and out!:rofl:
 
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