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Thread: Best Practice Guidance

  1. #1

    Best Practice Guidance

    Following on from the basic standard thread.
    The use of dogs part issued by SNH,as I said some parts within will not always help secure a wounded beast.
    I understand that the BP guides are not made to cover "every conceivable operation or situation",you could write a book about the subject never mind trying to condense it into a few pages,a very hard job to do.
    The guide needs to dedicate a few pages to shot site inspection,photos as well,instead of a few lines on the subject,this is THE most important way of working out how you and your dog should be worked.Reaction to shot is used as stated by the guide also,however we have all I'm sure seen beasts at the side of a wood show no reaction and dissappeared after the shot,to find dead within the wood.
    Follow up procedures-
    In the table at the end of SNH guide,
    First box-I'd agree with unequivocably along with head and neck shot as well.
    2nd box-to my mind I'd leave that type of shot beast(mid haunch,legs or brisket)a lot longer,minimum of 4 hours,longer if possible,dependant on what is found at shot site.
    3rd box-bang on
    4th box-probably one of the most common but yet this is the worst piece of advice within the BP guides in my opinion.Deer shot in stomach will go a long long way if followed within 30minutes,normally resulting in a lost beast,leave it at least 4 hours,beast will stiffen or die,liver shot will be dead,again depends on shot site inspection.
    Last box-correct,but always on line,especially in thick cover,able to read dog much better.
    All dependant on shot site inspection and experience of dog and handler.
    The BP guides are a great bit of work and as cooking fat rightly stated yesterday,when written,not a lot known about tracking in UK.
    Id not let a dog free unless that dog is experienced also,knows the job already,loosed preferably with a more experienced dog for a start,then once 2 or 3 wounded beasts found then loose alone.Reason-it gives a young dog confidence,take older dog off though in later searches as normally the older dog will take over and give the youngster no opportunity of working.
    Hope this helps a bit and clears up any misunderstanding of myself slating BP guides,this is not what is intended.
    Any thoughts or comments?

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  2. #2
    OK get what you are saying, leg haunch brisket shots can all travel along distance, in fact a a low brisket shot may never be found regardless of how long you leave it or how good your dog is, but of course that does not mean we should not try.

    I disagree slightly with what you say on stomach shots, a stomach shot beast will normally die within a five hour period usually considerably less, true if pushed will travel a long way but if not pushed a gut shot beast will lay down fairly quickly, a gut shot beast stiffens up quickly if allowed to lie down, thirty minutes is often enough it will often try to get up but movements are slow if not in too thick cover you often can get a finishing shot in, so the terrain will also be deciding factor on how long you leave it.

    Not trying to start an argument here , but this is where you are going to have a problem, the Continentals accept this procedure as normal, but most UK stalkers find the idea of leaving a wounded beast for four hours or more abhorrent, this includes the powers that be, the whole emphasis is on ending the animals suffering as quickly as possible.

    For that reason I can't see any Best Practise Guide recommending leaving a follow up for four hours.

    Shooting is under enough pressure can you imagine the reaction of the general public never mind the antis if what you are recommending became best practise.

  3. #3
    Todd took another badly shot Sika stag to bay in a raging burn last week. Although hit through the gut and clipped the liver, the stag still made it into a very steep sided burn, where Todd bough it to bay and held it. The stag had only brow tines as it had snapped both antlers clean off, and although was still standing it was also held by the eddying pool it was standing in. Todd saw his chance and grabbed it by the throat and killed it!!

    I have some photos after the event, and th Finnish client took some whilst the whole affair was taking place, which I hope he will send me.

    4 hour wait would have seen the stag long gone!! waiting for such a long length of time is to my mind wrong. A great deal of shooting in Gemany is driven (someone will no doubt correct me if I am wrong) and therefore the chances of wounding a deer or game is very much higher, and as it is already on the run, chances are with adrenalin it will run further.

    I prefer to have my beast dead and in the larder
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by sikamalc View Post

    4 hour wait would have seen the stag long gone!! waiting for such a long length of time is to my mind wrong. A great deal of shooting in Gemany is driven (someone will no doubt correct me if I am wrong) and therefore the chances of wounding a deer or game is very much higher, and as it is already on the run, chances are with adrenalin it will run further.

    I prefer to have my beast dead and in the larder
    Totally agree. In my experience there is no need to wait so long.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by jubnut View Post
    Totally agree. In my experience there is no need to wait so long.
    I agree, 10 min wait is enough for me.

    More importantly a decent strong dog!

    I have been in the lucky position of always having plenty shot deer to get dogs going pretty fast. I have never used false blood trails. Like with pointers, I like a dog with spirit, ie on the verge of being wild! but not quite.

    Plenty will gasp.

    I also favour more than 1 dog, gasp horror!!

    and sorry, even worse a big dog terrier combo!!!

    As Malc has mentioned, it is often a natural barrier that stops the deer not the dog. 4 hours and it is gone!

    Stomach shots, 30 mins, very unusual for a dog not to nail it.

    Obviously, I'm used to the Highlands and not too many roads, people etc.

  6. #6
    See where your coming from Bogtrotter.Open hill completely different.Correct.
    Well done Malcolm on still having a dog left,he sounds a good one albeit perhaps a little aggressive,sometimes a positive,sometimes not.
    When you push a beast on,that beast goes further,causing more suffering,now a gut shot beast,any species when pushed too soon will outrun everything but a lurcher,better still like you Bambislayer a brace of them.
    If you wait to track/push with your dog that gut shot beast will not go far from the strike point if left in peace.Ive had numerous red/roe tracks in woodland/arable ground where the beast has been pushed on by some well meaning stalker and their dog(wanting to end the suffering quickly only to cause more stress and distress to that animal)only to be called in with mine.
    If you wait the beast is very stiff and closer to death than previous therefore a dog can secure or hold to bay no problem,without the same risk to your dog or yourself.
    This is no continental method but a practice I've employed by learning over time from mistakes made by myself and others I know(non continentals as well)
    Believe me a gut shot roe that I've watched from 300m away with its innards hanging out and it's head nodding as though on its last legs can still run like the clappers,after a 2 hour wait,wonder what that beast would've run like after 10 or 30 minutes??This is only a roe deer,no sika or red.
    Now a 4 hour wait you don't have these problems,as bogtrotter says 5 hours and its near dead/dead anyway,in woodland a wounded beast will seek cover/water no natural barrier,it seeks refuge away from its peers.
    I also use this next to people and roads,no problems yet.
    I also prefer the beasts dead and in the larder,mostly other people whom have pushed a gut shot deer way too quickly.
    On the open hill things can be done differently.
    PS On the continent there are a lot of driven hunts Malcolm,you're correct,a lot of my tracking exploits have taken place after nightshooting where there is supposedly a "trained" deer dog present....alas as we know this is not always the case.Nightshooting can be deceiving,distance,angle etc.
    Nothing in my view will increase adrenaline like a dog chasing an alive and kicking deer(any species)
    Last edited by Wolverine; 09-10-2012 at 22:54. Reason: PS added

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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by bambislayer View Post
    I agree, 10 min wait is enough for me.

    More importantly a decent strong dog!

    I have been in the lucky position of always having plenty shot deer to get dogs going pretty fast. I have never used false blood trails. Like with pointers, I like a dog with spirit, ie on the verge of being wild! but not quite.

    Plenty will gasp.

    I also favour more than 1 dog, gasp horror!!

    and sorry, even worse a big dog terrier combo!!!

    As Malc has mentioned, it is often a natural barrier that stops the deer not the dog. 4 hours and it is gone!

    Stomach shots, 30 mins, very unusual for a dog not to nail it.
    Apart from the highlands bit this describes my situation entirely.

    Another shock horror but I don't use a lead when trailing

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by bambislayer View Post
    I agree, 10 min wait is enough for me.

    More importantly a decent strong dog!

    I have been in the lucky position of always having plenty shot deer to get dogs going pretty fast. I have never used false blood trails. Like with pointers, I like a dog with spirit, ie on the verge of being wild! but not quite.

    Plenty will gasp.

    I also favour more than 1 dog, gasp horror!!

    and sorry, even worse a big dog terrier combo!!!

    As Malc has mentioned, it is often a natural barrier that stops the deer not the dog. 4 hours and it is gone!

    Stomach shots, 30 mins, very unusual for a dog not to nail it.

    Obviously, I'm used to the Highlands and not too many roads, people etc.

    Gone where in 4hrs?

    My dogs mean more to me than any wounded deer being found and I hope the latest one does not turn out to be so aggressive she will try and kill a beast. I want her to stand off and bark. She does that now on dead deer being dragged and it was not rocket science to teach her to do it. If she can hold it to bay then I can shoot it. I cannot shoot it if she is hanging onto a 12st Sika stag with only a damaged front leg. There are only so many times surely a dog will get away with that before being skewered? And I would not rush in with a knife either on a lightly wounded beast. I want to keep my eyes till ai die. Regardless of whether these practices are carried out or not what I am saying is that in my opinion there is no need to introduce that risk and would doubt they are suggested in the BP guide, but may be wrong as I have never read it...

    Surely the safest thing for all involved, stalker and dog is for a stag to be held at bay to be shot again?

    And jubnut, what you describe is not what I would call trailing. It is letting a dog run about in the hope it finds a lost deer. I have a stalking mate who's wife has a chihuahua that I believe can do the same thing, that is not an attempt to wind you up, she does and it can...

    If you find that works for you then fine...
    Last edited by jamross65; 10-10-2012 at 07:01.

  9. #9
    Works fine for me. It's not as Out of control as you make it sound, both my dogs work to a whistle, I can stop them dead on a trail, whistle them back, make them sit etc etc, why slow them down with a lead when the invariable result of the trail is either they find a dead deer or I slip the lead anyway for them to chase the deer down?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
    See where your coming from Bogtrotter.Open hill completely different.Correct.
    Well done Malcolm on still having a dog left,he sounds a good one albeit perhaps a little aggressive,sometimes a positive,sometimes not.
    When you push a beast on,that beast goes further,causing more suffering,now a gut shot beast,any species when pushed too soon will outrun everything but a lurcher,better still like you Bambislayer a brace of them.
    If you wait to track/push with your dog that gut shot beast will not go far from the strike point if left in peace.Ive had numerous red/roe tracks in woodland/arable ground where the beast has been pushed on by some well meaning stalker and their dog(wanting to end the suffering quickly only to cause more stress and distress to that animal)only to be called in with mine.
    If you wait the beast is very stiff and closer to death than previous therefore a dog can secure or hold to bay no problem,without the same risk to your dog or yourself.
    This is no continental method but a practice I've employed by learning over time from mistakes made by myself and others I know(non continentals as well)
    Believe me a gut shot roe that I've watched from 300m away with its innards hanging out and it's head nodding as though on its last legs can still run like the clappers,after a 2 hour wait,wonder what that beast would've run like after 10 or 30 minutes??This is only a roe deer,no sika or red.
    Now a 4 hour wait you don't have these problems,as bogtrotter says 5 hours and its near dead/dead anyway,in woodland a wounded beast will seek cover/water no natural barrier,it seeks refuge away from its peers.
    I also use this next to people and roads,no problems yet.
    I also prefer the beasts dead and in the larder,mostly other people whom have pushed a gut shot deer way too quickly.
    On the open hill things can be done differently.
    PS On the continent there are a lot of driven hunts Malcolm,you're correct,a lot of my tracking exploits have taken place after nightshooting where there is supposedly a "trained" deer dog present....alas as we know this is not always the case.Nightshooting can be deceiving,distance,angle etc.
    Nothing in my view will increase adrenaline like a dog chasing an alive and kicking deer(any species)
    There are dogs that are aggressive and inteligent enough to know when to use their strength and knowledge to gain the upper hand. To me its something that you cannot train a dog to do, it learns by being out there and being with its owner and tackling different situations. Todd happens to be one of those dogs in my opinion and as he is now over 6 years old he has seen and tackled most situations in the highlands of Scotland on Sika and Reds, right through to sika in Dorset and Fallow, Roe in West Sussex.
    He has yet to tackle a cwd, and has only very limited experience on Munties, but I am sure he will cope ok And more to the point he has not lost a beast yet!

    And by the way, Todd is the most loving soppy dog you will ever see in your life, when he is not working. He does however hate Sika deer.
    Last edited by sikamalc; 10-10-2012 at 08:28.
    All grades of deer stalkers/hunters in the UK and overseas catered for. Level 2 DMQ signing off available. Over 30 years experience in the stalking/hunting industry. For friendly and professional help go to www.UKOutfitters.co.uk

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