Is muntjac classed as vermin?

006remmaj

Active Member
Hi there just a quick question, is muntjac classed as vermin? If it is can they be shot with a .222 or a .223 whilst having that rifle for vermin control?
 
Hi there just a quick question, is muntjac classed as vermin? If it is can they be shot with a .222 or a .223 whilst having that rifle for vermin control?

If you are planning on going deer stalking why not do your DSC1 as it will give you a good grounding in the basics. That or go out with an experienced person and learn the ropes.
 
Was just a question as someone said this was the case, I have a 275 for shooting deer and vermin, just seems like another of those common sense situations!
 
You have 275 conditioned for deer and you were unsure of what status they were?
A look on BDS/BASC deer section would of given you the correct answer surely.
 
You need your 222 or 223 seperately conditioned for small deer or have the AOLQ condition for those calibres.
My 22-250 was conditioned for fox, vermin and ground game and had a seperate condition for CWD and Muntjac.
I now have it conditioned for fox and AOLQ, when i picked up my licence after the recent variation i queried the condition and was told by my licensing office the the single fox and AOLQ condition for the 22-250 covers CWD and muntjac.

Ian.
 
What's AOLQ?

Any Other Lawful Quarry.

This is really strange, my FEO, which is probably the same as Whitebeards, told me that you MUST have at least rifle conditioned for deer before the AOLQ condition will cover deer on a 223.

Confused or what???
 
Any Other Lawful Quarry.

This is really strange, my FEO, which is probably the same as Whitebeards, told me that you MUST have at least rifle conditioned for deer before the AOLQ condition will cover deer on a 223.

Confused or what???

Tikka, your FAC should come back with AOLQ for all your rifles regardless of what our FEO said, he does come out with some good uns now and then:D

Ian.
 
ANYTHING can be classed as vermin, if something fits the term vermin in the OED then it can be shot as vermin, the police know this and dont like it but without a legal definition we have to refer to the normal daily application of a work to determine what is meant. A muntjac which us a pest through crop damage can be shot as vermin but must be shot under the terms of the relavant deer act. A muntjac shot for food kust because its there isnt vermin at the time and whilst its certain that it will damage a crop sooner or later you must be sure of your reasoning at the time of shooting. Specifically if you can reasonably say you shot it at the time it was eating growing timber then your case for shooting it under a vermin condition is valid.
 
ANYTHING can be classed as vermin, if something fits the term vermin in the OED then it can be shot as vermin

Poor advice. Incomplete, over-simplistic and ignorant of over-riding legislation..

Unless you are really really sure that you can classify "ANYTHING" as vermin, stick to moles, grey squirrels, rabbits, mink, stoats, weasels, rabbits, rats, and mice.

Please don't go shooting red squirrels, dormice, water voles, shrews, hedgehogs, polecats etc. Also vermin.

As for birds, keep up to date with the general licenses.

Muntjac do not "prey upon preserved game". Nor are they listed as "small ground vermin" They are not vermin. And they are undoubtedly deer.

Foxes do "prey upon preserved game" but are not mentioned either. But perhaps they are noxious, objectionable stealthy or slinky. Maybe they are vermin ???

See Hansard: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200203/ldhansrd/vo031008/text/31008w02.htm

8 Oct 2003 : Column WA60
Vermin


Lord Selsdon asked Her Majesty's Government:

Which mammals and other animals are classified as "vermin".[HL4559]

Lord Whitty: There is no definition of the term "vermin" in UK law. In such a situation the Oxford Dictionary definition should be applied.

The Oxford Dictionary defines "vermin" as "Animals of a noxious or objectionable kind. Originally applied to reptiles, stealthy, or slinky animals, and various wild beasts; now, excluding in US and Australia, almost entirely restricted to those animals or birds which prey upon preserved game . . ."

The Small Ground Vermin Traps Order 1958 and the various Spring Traps Approval Orders, refer to "small ground vermin". Neither the orders nor the Pests Act 1954, under which they are made, define this term or provide an exclusive list of species. However, the following animals are listed under various orders: moles, grey squirrels, rabbits, mink, stoats, weasels, rabbits, rats, and mice.

Traps approved under the Spring Traps Approval Order 1995 do not apply to small ground vermin listed in Schedules 5 and 6 to the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. This means that red squirrels, dormice, water voles, shrews, hedgehogs, polecats and a number of other species are excluded.
 
Tikka, your FAC should come back with AOLQ for all your rifles regardless of what our FEO said, he does come out with some good uns now and then:D

Ian.

My variation did come back with AOLQ on all calibers this time Ian, looks like Northants have seen the light at last..........
 
Sharpie, you are right to quote the dictionary with regard to the UK but ANYTHING can indeed be classed as vermin SO LONG AS it is a pest or annoying, troublesome etc, my point was not entirely made out simply to answer the question about muntjac and I should have known somebody would want to play barrister and go into a lenghty opinion.

The OED actually says the word "vermin" originates from snakes or other animals regarded as harmful or objectionable but is now specific to mammals or birds injurous to game or crops"

Whilst elapahants are protected and not in the UK in the wild, nor are they a predator they are classed as vermin in Africa for eating crops and trampling things etc, so anything that is a problem to another species or humans can be classed as vermin if you carefully assess the animals habits, BUT clearly not all animals cause harm or are injurous to people or crops etc. (e.g. water voles, dormice) so naturally some will fall outside or in case of the muntjac, they fall across the divide of being vermin on occaison and not on others. Some landowners love their deer and dont mind the trees they eat but those struggling to grow rare saplings for the cabinet making industry will view them as vermin and have a right to control them as such rather than harvesting them for food for example.

Hansard is a poor example as they have put an unnecessary gloss on the issue because they wish people not to view red squirrels for example as vermin and whilst i agree that the law protects them from being killed, the damage they do is huge and i would view them as vermin on that basis even though I cannto control them.

The traps orders clearly lists species for reasons of clarity for te users - they are not to be used as and exhaustive list of vermin species. Trap approval orders approve mechanisms for certain animals otherwise people would use traps without care resulting in inhumane activity with animals that clearly the equipment wasnt designed for.

So going back to Muntjac - they are deer and vermin in certain cases but when shooting them without a deer condition you must be shooting them as vermin because they are doing something that causes them to be viewed as such.
 
So going back to Muntjac - they are deer and vermin in certain cases but when shooting them without a deer condition you must be shooting them as vermin because they are doing something that causes them to be viewed as such.

Am I correct in thinking that you are a BASC employee?

Is this an official BASC stance or your own opinion please?
 
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