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Thread: Shoot work parties/liability/insurance/chainsaws

  1. #1

    Shoot work parties/liability/insurance/chainsaws

    Alright

    Jist a quick question, like many folk who run syndicates/shoot captains/keepers thoughts are begginning to look to next season already (if not been doing that already for quite a while) and work improvements that could be made to either improve the shoot or make ur life easier.

    Like most shoots who have the pleasure off sitka plantations we could do with a bit off brashing done in 1 or 2 woods to help the beaters. It's a DIY syndicate but we are pretty lucky to have a squad off pretty practical common sense guys/guns a good few have or will wrk chainsaws for firewood away from the shoot (but to my knowledge only myself and 1 more have tickets)

    Now as a shoot captain am i responsibl/liable for people either bringing there own saw or using 1 of my spares to brash trees? Also should i be insiting they wear all the proper gear, well boots trousers and helmet atleast?
    We are an affilated syndicate so everyone is insured for 'shoot work' but would that include using chain saws when not trained

    so basically does the shoot captain bear any liability if an accident happens? And would the insurance also cover us as if person has not been trained/ticketed?
    And to make clear these boys are not the village idiots or the very clever numpties with no common sense, most will use them every now and then on farms/firewood, althou i imagine that will not matter anyway.

    Cheers in advance

  2. #2
    Must be destiny, I have just sat through a fishing club committee meeting, about the very same thing.
    We came to the conclusion that yes the management is responsible for making sure that protective gear is worn.
    As for the liability insurance, they will not want to pay out if unqualified people use shoot owned machinery.
    If people bring there own machinery, and use their own protective gear you should be ok.
    We as a club own all the machinery we need, and nobody has a certificate, including me, using a top handle saw
    I have often volunteered to take the necessary training courses if the club pays, not happening, so not sure what I/we are going to do.
    Our treasurer who also sorts out the public liability insurance, and is an insurance broker in real life has contacted out insurers who
    say if people are working under instruction, i.e. "you do that with this" and use this machine and this safety gear we are ok.
    But not so for the top handle saw, basically if the machinery can be bought and used by the average man on the street, then we are ok.
    All that also depends on us doing a risk assessment, so that we can at least prove we have thought about both the work that needs doing
    and the dangers inherent in doing this work. We have decided to carry on as normal, plus the risk assessment, but in future any large trees
    that need felling, we will pay to have done, on advice from the insurers.

    Neil.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by countrryboy View Post
    Alright

    Jist a quick question, like many folk who run syndicates/shoot captains/keepers thoughts are begginning to look to next season already (if not been doing that already for quite a while) and work improvements that could be made to either improve the shoot or make ur life easier.

    Like most shoots who have the pleasure off sitka plantations we could do with a bit off brashing done in 1 or 2 woods to help the beaters. It's a DIY syndicate but we are pretty lucky to have a squad off pretty practical common sense guys/guns a good few have or will wrk chainsaws for firewood away from the shoot (but to my knowledge only myself and 1 more have tickets)

    Now as a shoot captain am i responsibl/liable for people either bringing there own saw or using 1 of my spares to brash trees? Also should i be insiting they wear all the proper gear, well boots trousers and helmet atleast?
    We are an affilated syndicate so everyone is insured for 'shoot work' but would that include using chain saws when not trained

    so basically does the shoot captain bear any liability if an accident happens? And would the insurance also cover us as if person has not been trained/ticketed?
    And to make clear these boys are not the village idiots or the very clever numpties with no common sense, most will use them every now and then on farms/firewood, althou i imagine that will not matter anyway.

    Cheers in advance
    Stu
    Have you not read 'war and peace' http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.u...risk-assesment, nice debate going on on a similar issue.

    IMHO the answer is yes as Shoot Captain you are the Principal in charge of the Syndicate and will carry the 'can'if anything goes wrong. The Syndicate should already have an H&S Policy that covers the items you refer to and Hornet has confirmed the insurance position. Albeit that you need to ensure that your risk assessments on the work identify the hazards and those control measures for the people to be affected.

    PM me your e-mail and I can send you some info if you want.

    Cheers

    Andy

    PS- Who are the commonsense guys your referring too? I didn't meet any when I was down

  4. #4
    Instead of chainsaw brashing which can easlly damage the trees. Get some hand brashing saws or some silky saws.

    http://www.stantonhope.com/Tools_26_...ith_blade_.asp

  5. #5
    Alright andy, that must off been the 'b' numb nuts squad u met.

    I actually did see that other debate going on, most is way over my head. I meant to ask this question this time last year but we never got time to get them brashed anyway

    It would off been handy for 6 or 8 off us to blitz tracks throu a wood in 1 pass, but (and in my opinion a lot off bol**cks) it's prob better to plod away and do it myself, there is some nasty holes on some off them restocks (which u might have found) which itself is breaking most H & S guidelines.

    Without gettin on my anti H& S hobby horse, i used to cut/climb on railways prob one off the most (alledgely) safety consious industries there is but they make the rules up to suit them selves, some night shifts they actually encouraged u and turned a blind eye to whole work systems that are unsafe, so unsafe that i refused to operate some of the machines, and i'm a dodgy b****rd who will do most unsafe things no problem. Yet the previous week the same H & S inspector who turned his back on a night shift put me off track for have 1 busted piece off wire on my visor, when i argued he stuck his pen throu it wasnae even using my visor (which is not breaking H&S law it only has to be on helmet not used)

    Hornet. Having my climbing ticket i really should know, but are top handle saws actually completely different rules and restricted to only 'qualifed persons', i thought it was more a guidline. It's different up here as the boy's in saw shop ken me but they have never asked to see my climbing ticket when i bought it. It is strange that any joe bloggs can go in and hire a saw no questions asked, i know a shop that hires out 24" bar bad boy, a big boys saw that
    What are u using it for even when i'm climbing i often drag my 'proper saw' up the tree. If ur on the ground (which i imagine u are) there is no situation i'd ever chose a top handled saw over a normal rear handled saw. if the top handle is ur only prob just buy a nice wee 40 or 50cc saw, be almost as light and far better balanced handling and more power.
    As for the proper training course, for a top handled (if seperate from normal saws) u first have to do basic cross cut/felling course (1 week full time up here and about £1000) u then may be able to go straight on to climbing course (another week FT and about £1000ish) or u might have to also do ur medium felling afore they let u do the climbing course. In the old days they were never keen on letting u do the medium within 2 years of the basic so u had some decent practical experience, which was a very good idea, not now thou any one can do it, althou the failure rate is a lot higher now. Not 100% sure but u defo would need the basic first and then climbing ticket, even if u fancy the climbing ticket and u could use it: all ur gear has to be inspected and tested every 6 months and to be legal u would need 2 climbers at all times, 1 cutting 1 standby rescue so 2 kits not cheap.

    Cheers for the advice

    Ps Chainsaw brashing should not damage a tree, u leave a long 'coat hanger' looks bloody terrible but that way bark not broken. I go to 1 commercial shoot where they have brashed large areas for flushing/picking up and the trees are totaly f**ked still living but weeping severly, will have zero timber value in 30 yrs time, dunno how they get away with it. The silky's are good but it is bloody hard work and esp when the boys all have worked and own saws, no point in having a dog and barking urself
    Last edited by countrryboy; 08-01-2013 at 23:32. Reason: ps

  6. #6
    Yes top handle saw is different, you need to show a ticket to buy, any make or model in the uk.
    This is also, at least on Stihl's part a world wide policy, or at least for those countries with a heath and safety law, act or whatever.
    Mine was paid for by me, signed out to a mate with a ticket, and then I was reimbursed by the club.
    Yes you can hire a saw, but not a top handle one.
    The one point our insurance company kept on about was privately owned equipment being used by the owner is fine, do not allow any club
    equipment that require a ticket of any kind to be used by anybody with no ticket, which actually makes a mockery of owning any in the first place.
    Once that sinks in with the rest of the Committee my name will be mud, as I have spent (with the Committee's approval) over 25k in the last 5 years. Lol

    Neil.

  7. #7
    I take it gettin the boys to sign a disclaimer is a complete waste of time and not legal then, something like i have advised u to wear proper ppe and get trained/ticketed have gave u a safety briefing now away and dinae cut ur leg off if u do not my fault.

    Cheers honet, like i say the boys up here arenae that paticular when it come to tickets, personaly i'm not a big fan off top hanled saws and they can be more danerous as folk tend to wave them about too much; that wee stihl ms220 is a cracking wee saw (esp compared to the cheap plie o sh*t i bought) but as i said normal saws are far nicer to work with both on the ground and i even dinae mind climbing with them. U could prob flog ur top handle as they make silly money on ebay and buy a 40ish cc saw far cheaper which will be a good bit more powerful (think most climbing saws are arond35ish cc)
    Could u not loan pretend 'sell' (a nominal fee, eg £1 but they canae resell) that stuff back to members to use on work parties.
    The problem is generally less people own there own chain saw/powr tools now, in our own small fishing club every man and dog used to turn up with a chain saw now only 1 lad brings 1, which is more than enough really, but i imagine it could be wosre the further south/more urban u get, less folk working on land/estates and less with real fires

    2506 I did actually suggest to a few off the boys last season we should get into the wood with secaters or lopers as the trees are just pre thicket stage so not heavy woody timber, mibee will suggest it again, but the boys looked at me like was daft even suggest doing it with out a chainsaw. Think will push it harder this time

  8. #8
    Dear oh Dear Stu!!!!!! Get the lads who know how to use saws to get 1 bring it down, and get brashing.... If they have acess to a saw theyll have acess to safety gear make sure they wear it. I hope your thinking Rose cottage though, that woods a complete waste of time, and NO person should be going through it, its a dangerous place. Take the branches back as far as you can last thing you need is a low peg ripping a dog or catching someone about the face. The only way you kill a tree as you should know if the bark is completely ringed all the way round stopping the flow of sap thus straving the tree.

    I suppose Im a bit old school, I learned to use a saw 1986 at Balloch School of forestry, then have used them off and on for 20 or so years including comercial cutting for the commission. I personally just can get my head round how PC the country has got. law suits here Laws suits there then the Ambulance chasers. Fek me this is the UK not America.


    nutty

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by countrryboy View Post
    Could u not loan pretend 'sell' (a nominal fee, eg £1 but they canae resell) that stuff back to members to use on work parties.
    Just got back from the dealer we bought all the equipment from, the only things that must be used by a certificated operator are the
    top handle saw, and the quad. The saw is an MS200 bought brand new just about a year ago, I love using it and will be keeping it as it is perfect for our use.
    But the ownership of said saw is going change, it will be "mine" now, I am the only person to use it anyway, that way it is my risk.
    Apparently the position is that you must have a certificate to buy one from a dealer, but not to use one privately, so that covers that, and the club provide the safety gear.
    The quad is also only used by me, the clubs insurance company takes the veiw (right or wrong) that so long as the quad is only used by an 'experienced' driver that is fine.
    So to some up it seems provided a basic risk assessment is in place, the machinery in use is owned by the operators, and that they wear protective gear you are covered.

    Neil.

  10. #10
    OK, you are a club, you are the captain of that club. It is your responsibility to ensure H&S procedures and matters are enforced. Any tool you or equipment you provide for use must comply with PUWER and all persons must be deemed competent and where applicable qualified in the use of the equipment with appropriate PPE. Your easy answer is get in a qualified contractor to do the work for you. I do work for schools, outdoor centres etc all the time. It is the path of least hassle and risistance! Risk assessments, site specific risk assessment, method statement, Tree constraints plan, environmental policy, COSHH, need I go on!

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