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Thread: Test/Trials for Breeding from a Deer Dog

  1. #1

    Test/Trials for Breeding from a Deer Dog

    Due to having a relatively young dog I have recently been trying to decide whether to have him castrated or to gain some more knowledge of the breed (GWP) and put him to stud when he is mature and trained for deer. Apart from the obvious tests for hip/elbow dysplasia and eye disease tests for certain breeds what other test/achievement is there that you can try to achieve to set your dog apart from others?

    I am only talking about dogs that are purely worked for deer, I know that there are many working tests for feathered game.


    Working dogs for deer are a lot more popular now so would it be beneficial to have dogs that are worked solely for deer and to a good standard or is this going away from the breed standard of being able to do most disciplines. I suspect a lot of dogs are mated from their owners friends dog who works deer because you may know the dog and its ability and it is convenient, I am not saying there is anything particularly wrong with this but would that person look somewhere else for a potential sire if he was a proven worker?


    Also, If a certain person had a bitch working solely on deer that he wanted to breed from would he choose a sire proven solely on deer or go down the line of one that has merits for pointing tests as well but may not be as proficient in deer work?


    This thread is not aimed at opening a debate on tests for deer dogs but what would be breeders think is the best way of choosing breeding partners.



    Pete

  2. #2
    You may have a very large can of worms on your hands here, I politely suggest an search of the forum for deer dog related post. You will find a wealth of debate and differing opinion and may get some indications from previous posts. I honestly doubt that with the best will in the world the various deer dog 'factions' on the site will be able to give you any kind of definite answer.

  3. #3
    There are no set tests at this moment in this country for Deer Dogs to pass that carry a qualification cert recognised by all major groups. But i feel your post will high light a need and an area that needs looked at before anything else. The authority,s ask for a qualified dog but there is no set standard of set dog.

  4. #4
    One of the things here on the SD is the quality of stalkers and there tracking dogs.

    Not so sure about tests. That could lead to another avenue.

    What would be brilliant is a long term and a very big step, is mentoring and helping beginners to start off on the right foot with their own dog and producing a bench mark for deer tracking dogs that can work. Helping newbies get it right can only be better for the stalking fraternity.

    Finding help and good advice is like locating rocking horse dung sometimes, having a few area contact numbers and people who don't mind giving a helping hand can only be a good thing for stalkers and the sport.


    Phil

  5. #5
    Thanks for the initial replies, just from the first post read I would just like to clarify that the thread should not just be about testing deer dogs to a certain standard as much but about the breeding of dogs and what owners are looking for regarding the working of their dog. I have been on here a while so am fully aware of the contentious issue of tests, which I agree do need looking into and setting up for individuals who would like to achieve them.

  6. #6
    Discopete.
    As said by the other posters this is invariably a huge can of worms. The big problem is there is no standard test in the UK at the moment which is recognised by anyone who knows anything about Tracking wounded Deer or Boar. As for training well there might be help soon just watch this space. To start with read Niels Sondergaard's book if you and your dog can do all his tracks and tests then you are half way there.
    As for your question about breeding it's rather ambiguous as most owners requirements or situation differ so much.
    TO STRIVE, TO SEEK, TO FIND. AND NEVER TO YIELD.

  7. #7
    Discopete, leaving aside trials, tests & assessments for a minute and given the opening line is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Discopete View Post
    Due to having a relatively young dog I have recently been trying to decide whether to have him castrated or to gain some more knowledge of the breed (GWP) and put him to stud when he is mature and trained for deer.
    I wouldn't get him castrated until he's completely finished developing anyway, I know my own vet will tell us to do it early, other vets say only once they have finished growing. The later makes sense to me and by this point you'll have a better idea of his abilities, instinct and temperament to decided as to whether he is fit for breeding or not.

    Maybe not so much with owners of dogs but it does seem that every one thinks their bitch is the best dog in the world and should be bred from - with this borne in mind try to be completely impartial in your decision as to your dogs suitability.

    There might be a bit of $$$ to be made in stud fee's but leaving the nuts on has it's own draw backs regarding the dogs health which could cost you not just financially but also, and more importantly, it could result in fewer years with your dog.

    Cheers,

    Ali

  8. #8
    Thanks for your reply Ali, I think people are getting caught up again on the testing side of my first post, I'm not so much interested in that as an answer just thought it explained the post better, I just really want to gauge the opinion of would be breeders as to which line they would go down to select a stud dog, would it be beneficial to use a deer dog only or one that is worked on feather. Or is this going away from the breed standard?

    With regards to having my dog castrated, I would not make a decision until I have spoken to the breeder I got him from and discussed it with him. I'm not decided yet but my initial feeling is it would be a shame to let his bloodline go from the UK.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Discopete View Post
    Thanks for your reply Ali, I think people are getting caught up again on the testing side of my first post, I'm not so much interested in that as an answer just thought it explained the post better, I just really want to gauge the opinion of would be breeders as to which line they would go down to select a stud dog, would it be beneficial to use a deer dog only or one that is worked on feather. Or is this going away from the breed standard?

    With regards to having my dog castrated, I would not make a decision until I have spoken to the breeder I got him from and discussed it with him. I'm not decided yet but my initial feeling is it would be a shame to let his bloodline go from the UK.
    If you are working a dog that is generally (note the word generally) not known for being necessarily the first choice as a deer dog, and it shows real ability in this line of work, in particular say tracking on a tracking lead,then I would suggest that putting two dogs together displaying that ability will increase the chances of pups also displaying similar ability and characteristics.

    I think labs in this country are a good example. They excell at retrieving but that does not mean they will be competent at tracking. If you look to other countries where labs are used, trialled and tested for tracking wounded large game, I would think they will come from a long line of proven tracking dogs.

    If you have a very good lab in game shooting and put it to another also good in the field, how do you know if the offspring will be able to or even want to track?

    Dogs bred for a purpose will generally (there's that word again) be able to do what is asked in respect of their work, if the work is what they are bred for. if you ask something of a breed that it has not been bred for you are surely watering down the chances if it being a success?

    Likewise, a dog good at something that it was not necessarily and originally bred for, like labs, may be in fact very good trackers. So if I had a lab bitch and she was a good deer dog, I would be putting her to a stud that was also proven in that respect, and not hope that the winner of say the last retriever championship would help in producing tracking dogs. Hope that makes sense????

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Discopete View Post
    Due to having a relatively young dog I have recently been trying to decide whether to have him castrated or to gain some more knowledge of the breed (GWP) and put him to stud when he is mature and trained for deer. Apart from the obvious tests for hip/elbow dysplasia and eye disease tests for certain breeds what other test/achievement is there that you can try to achieve to set your dog apart from others?


    I am only talking about dogs that are purely worked for deer, I know that there are many working tests for feathered game.




    Working dogs for deer are a lot more popular now so would it be beneficial to have dogs that are worked solely for deer and to a good standard or is this going away from the breed standard of being able to do most disciplines. I suspect a lot of dogs are mated from their owners friends dog who works deer because you may know the dog and its ability and it is convenient, I am not saying there is anything particularly wrong with this but would that person look somewhere else for a potential sire if he was a proven worker?




    Also, If a certain person had a bitch working solely on deer that he wanted to breed from would he choose a sire proven solely on deer or go down the line of one that has merits for pointing tests as well but may not be as proficient in deer work?




    This thread is not aimed at opening a debate on tests for deer dogs but what would be breeders think is the best way of choosing breeding partners.






    Pete



    As the owner of a GWP bitch with the breed standard in mind when looking for a sire, the first thing I would look for is temperament. I don't care if it can find leprechauns. If it's too sharp, then I wouldn't use it. After that, I'd be looking at working ability, I'd want it to be good at everything that a GWP is good at. Firstly bird work (Hunt, Point, Retrieve). After that, I'd consider tracking freshly shot deer as pretty much a given. I wouldn't expect a GWP to be able to follow a 72hr trail under 6 inches of snow like widus dog does. If you can get it to that standard, then I'll be well impressed and will use your dog as a stud for mine, but only if his temperament is right and only if he hunts, points and retrieves feathered game. (Im gonna get slated for this next bit) I wouldn't be as bothered about hips and elbows as I would be about working ability, just so long as the dog hasn't shown any signs of vWB (you might as well test for this, its like 60) and its eyelids have never needed attention.




    Asking this forum how important a dogs tracking ability is can be compared to asking a landrover forum what they think the best 4x4xfar is!


    I'd hate for the breed to be divided between show dogs and working dogs and then split again between bird dogs and deer dogs.

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