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Thread: Incising lymph nodes and best practice. (DSC 2)

  1. #1

    Incising lymph nodes and best practice. (DSC 2)

    I'm a little puzzled by this topic, so I thought I'd start a discussion and try to gather as many thoughts as possible on the subject.

    The DIs Best Practice guide specifically states:

    "It is recommended that lymph nodes are not cut during inspection."
    http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/u...guides/159.pdf

    Compare that to the situation with red meat inspection where it is a requirement that in cattle the retropharyngeal, bronchial and mediastinal lymph nodes MUST be incised. In the FSA Manual for Official Controls the various lymph nodes for deer have the instruction to incise in brackets - suggesting "where necessary". I have attached a couple of screen-shots from the guide, but the whole (riveting) document can be found here:

    http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pd...part4rev51.pdf

    I hold my DSC 1 and can find no advice either way in the BDS manual I have (November 2010).

    The only reference I can find as to why it may not be a good idea is David Stretton's level 2 manual where he states:

    "Early guides on carcase inspection advised that all organs* and lymph nodes were incised to check the condition. Later veterinary advice is that if a gland looks abnormal the last thing to do is incise it and liberate infected material to spread contamination plus the danger of cutting yourself with a knife which has just cut an infected gland."
    [*in cattle various organs must be incised during the meat inspection, notably the heart, liver, trachea and lungs - I'll set that aside as an issue for now, but happy to throw that into the ring too!]

    My view as a vet is that we are performing the carcase inspection in the place of the meat inspector - with the hope that we can identify ANY problems (disease or otherwise) that may be affecting the carcase. My concern is not that we are potentially spreading infection, but possibly missing early signs of notifiable disease (small TB abscesses in LNs) or missing more subtle signs of disease (eg liver fluke, endocarditis etc etc).

    If you have a deer carcase riddled with tuberculosis, incising into a lymph node isn't going to make matters worse! I don't buy the 'you might cut yourself' argument. 10's of thousands of cattle that have reacted to TB tests go through the meat inspection process every year [having their lymph nodes incised] and I am unaware of a single abattoir worker who has contracted TB this way. The risk to the stalker from an infected deer from a single gralloch is minuscule.

    In a way it is a disservice that you can qualify as a 'trained hunter' and certify an animal fit to enter the food chain having never seen a lymph node in your life!

    What are people's thoughts, and what are people doing out there? How would a DSC 2 AW feel if the candidate insisted on incising the lymph nodes, apparently, in contravention of 'Best Practice'.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails PM2.png   PM1.png  

    Section 161 of the Highways Act 1980 (England & Wales) makes it an offence to discharge a firearm within 50 ft of the centre of a highway with vehicular rights without lawful authority or excuse, if as a result a user of the highway is injured, interrupted or endangered.

  2. #2
    Apache,

    My thinking is that the FSA Manuals are based upon commercial agricultural practices where control is appropriate.

    The issue of "Wild Animals" and eating them is an historical/cultural issue and will happen.

    Good Practice is just that, not control. Once a trained hunter "goes commercial" then things step up a level.

    Now, we all "know" a game dealer that deserves complaint, but no one does.....

    Stan

  3. #3
    I suppose it depends on how scrupulously clean the person is with their hands and implements. Is it not more likely that the lymph nodes would carry a higher concentration of bacteria in the case of an infection or is this a myth? (and I don't mean just obviously visible infections with enlarged node, puss etc). If this is true then isn't cutting unnecessarily just increasing the chance of cross contamination?

    Alex

  4. #4
    Make of this what you will, when i suspected TB in a red deer i incised one of the enlarged mesenteric nodes and it was a typical cheesey grain type substance which came out. The AVHLA vet inspected it the next day and didnt find any other lymph nodes that were infected, until he said 'oh i will just try the pre scapula nodes', he used his scalpel to cut through the skin into the node and out poured the cheesey puss, later confirmed as TB. All i can say is i dont have TB and i suspect neither does the vet. So what is good practice?
    Cheers
    Richard

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by csl View Post
    Is it not more likely that the lymph nodes would carry a higher concentration of bacteria in the case of an infection or is this a myth?
    The function of the lymph nodes (basically) is 2 fold:

    1. Infections are taken there by other scavenging immune cells where the correct antibody can be found then produced
    2. They produce antibodies (this is why your glands enlarge due to infection).

    Some infections (TB being one of them) gets taken to the lymph node but manages to evade some of the hosts immune responses and creates an abscess.

    Yes there may be a theoretically higher risk of bacteria there, but nothing like the level you take in cutting through the skin and entering the body cavity (assuming it's a normal looking node - not full of puss)!

    Section 161 of the Highways Act 1980 (England & Wales) makes it an offence to discharge a firearm within 50 ft of the centre of a highway with vehicular rights without lawful authority or excuse, if as a result a user of the highway is injured, interrupted or endangered.

  6. #6
    Richard,

    Good Practice is the same as your GP getting diagnosis correct. Can't cover 100% but if you follow the "practice" fewer people die. Some still die.

    The follow up can figure out where the weakness crept in.

    Stan

  7. #7
    In terms of DSC2 work on onwards you don't cut into lymph nodes, they either look and feel normal or there is a problem and you get advice. The idea as mentioned above being the the main reason but also that you simply don't need to incise them to measure condition generally.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by paul at barony View Post
    In terms of DSC2 work on onwards you don't cut into lymph nodes, they either look and feel normal or there is a problem and you get advice. The idea as mentioned above being the the main reason but also that you simply don't need to incise them to measure condition generally.
    Paul I suspect you've nailed this. The trained hunter status is at quite a basic level, so the lymph node is either:
    a) Normal and everything OK
    b) Abnormal and questions need to be asked.

    A swollen inguinal node with an infected foot could be OK (though rejected in slaughterhouse), but a swollen bronchial node with no other explanation needs checking.

    Having said that, I'm inclined to agree with Apache that incising has its place. The risk to human health is very low from the pus as far as I am aware (most people get it from inhaled bacteria).

  9. #9
    Being honest i think for a big majority on here the grallochs out and in a bush while its still steaming for most ill bet

    In terms of incising , surely all work is finished with the carcass so no need to worry about cross contamination?
    Blessed be the sheeple for they shall inherit bugger all...

  10. #10

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