Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 19

Thread: Lymph Node Incision

  1. #1

    Lymph Node Incision

    Just starting a new thread in answer to the previous one so newcomers don't have to read through. I've done some reading around and asked some opinions of other vets involved in food safety and pathology. The reasonable question was posed by Apache as why Best Practice is opposed to incising Lymph Nodes, which he and I would do routinely when doing a post-mortem.

    A colleague put it nice and simply that there is a difference between a PM to find out why an animal died and the inspection process that decides if the deer is fit to eat. He drily suggested that he hoped we knew why it had died! So inspection of nodes is largely irrelevant in the absence of other findings.

    Human meat inspection incises nodes specifically to look for TB, so is this applicable to deer?

    TB in deer is often liquid pus rather than the cheesy/gritty pus found in cattle and from what I've read, I get the distinct impression that TB in deer is not subtle even if only the nodes are affected. The deer itself may look OK, but lesions are big. The liquid nature of the pus in many lesions means there is a real risk of carcass contamination if the node is incised. The pattern of lesions in deer is that if any internal abscess is found (without an obvious cause) then TB has to be considered.

    Best Practice is that if the nodes are suspicious - enlarged, lumpy, change in colour based on looking and feeling then they should be treated as suspicious. BP says to bag and collect offal and report to your nearest AHVLA office (see above sticky).

    We've had a TB hotspot declared near here and AHVLA would like to have case reports from deer. If they are all negative, so much the better.

    Hope this helps

    B



  2. #2
    Buchan - thanks for asking!

    Quote Originally Posted by Buchan View Post
    I get the distinct impression that TB in deer is not subtle even if only the nodes are affected. The deer itself may look OK, but lesions are big.
    It has to start somewhere! If we don't go looking for it there is a chance it could be missed.

    Personally I will continue incising lymph nodes. Obviously away from the carcase.

    Section 161 of the Highways Act 1980 (England & Wales) makes it an offence to discharge a firearm within 50 ft of the centre of a highway with vehicular rights without lawful authority or excuse, if as a result a user of the highway is injured, interrupted or endangered.

  3. #3
    Personally I will continue incising lymph nodes. Obviously away from the carcase.[/QUOTE]

    Good point!

  4. #4
    Not to back slap you two vets, who are busy high fiving each other but these two threads are excellent.... More of the same please... Good reading

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by OSS32 View Post
    Not to back slap you two vets, who are busy high fiving each other but these two threads are excellent.... More of the same please... Good reading
    Totally agree OSS32, it is this information that is a really valuable part of the SD site and a big thanks to the vets who are spending the time to inform the rest of us.
    Personally I don't incise (unless when training on larder/gralloch courses just to show a healthy gland, what it should look and feel like). A swollen gland is usually pretty obvious.

    For guided Roe deer stalking,. BASC accredited trainer for DSC1 and 2. BASC accredited training centre with courses held regularly.
    www.greenleedeer.co.uk

  6. #6
    [QUOTEo=Buchan;511053]Just starting a new thread in answer to the previous one so newcomers don't have to read through. I've done some reading around and asked some opinions of other vets involved in food safety and pathology. The reasonable question was posed by Apache as why Best Practice is opposed to incising Lymph Nodes, which he and I would do routinely when doing a post-mortem.

    A colleague put it nice and simply that there is a difference between a PM to find out why an animal died and the inspection process that decides if the deer is fit to eat. He drily suggested that he hoped we knew why it had died! So inspection of nodes is largely irrelevant in the absence of other findings.

    Human meat inspection incises nodes specifically to look for TB, so is this applicable to deer?

    TB in deer is often liquid pus rather than the cheesy/gritty pus found in cattle and from what I've read, I get the distinct impression that TB in deer is not subtle even if only the nodes are affected. The deer itself may look OK, but lesions are big. The liquid nature of the pus in many lesions means there is a real risk of carcass contamination if the node is incised. The pattern of lesions in deer is that if any internal abscess is found (without an obvious cause) then TB has to be considered.

    Best Practice is that if the nodes are suspicious - enlarged, lumpy, change in colour based on looking and feeling then they should be treated as suspicious. BP says to bag and collect offal and report to your nearest AHVLA office (see above sticky).

    We've had a TB hotspot declared near here and AHVLA would like to have case reports from deer. If they are all negative, so much the better.

    Hope this helps

    B


    [/QUOTE]

    there are a few points made in this post that is above the everyday stalker/hunter
    Especially when you are about educated people
    Most stalkers/hunters are not
    Meat inspectors incise for a reason and because they are trained to
    same as vets because I hope they really know what they are looking at and for
    but your colleague put it into perspective
    As a deer stalker
    if we found it dead we would not need to internally inspect to find out why it died as we would not usually touch it but road kill is another issue for some
    if we had shot it then we already know the reason why it had died
    surely gland/node inspection is still important to see if it is still fit to eat as some beasts on first impression before they hit the deck look in good health and condition
    would you recommend an every day stalker to incise this and why??


  7. #7

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by deer man View Post
    Is that a tape worm cyst?
    Looks more like an abscess or tumour. I would cut into it to see. Could even be a .22 bullet

    Section 161 of the Highways Act 1980 (England & Wales) makes it an offence to discharge a firearm within 50 ft of the centre of a highway with vehicular rights without lawful authority or excuse, if as a result a user of the highway is injured, interrupted or endangered.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Apache View Post
    Looks more like an abscess or tumour. I would cut into it to see. Could even be a .22 bullet
    Interesting
    what would you expect the texture to be like once you incised

    Not .22
    oldish Roe buck in rut on a arable farm
    i will not hold you to your analyses if wrong
    just more out of interest

  10. #10
    I'm assuming that the greyish lump to the left of the large round mass is a lymph node. It looks like the mass has some adhesions (scarring) to its left side, so its possibly an abscess. But an internal abscess could be TB so I'd not incise.

Similar Threads

  1. Mesenteric lymph node swollen?
    By W16OEN in forum Diseases, Welfare and Biology
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 12-04-2011, 14:52
  2. Whats this node called?
    By flyingfisherman in forum Deer Stalking General
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-11-2010, 18:39
  3. The odd Swollen lymph node(s)
    By arthursc in forum Diseases, Welfare and Biology
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 22-08-2010, 18:53
  4. Swollen Lymph nodes
    By shootingduckdog in forum Deer Stalking General
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 15-01-2009, 14:28
  5. Lymph Glands
    By Heym SR20 in forum Deer Stalking General
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 19-06-2008, 16:02

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •