Lymph Node Incision

Buchan

Well-Known Member
Just starting a new thread in answer to the previous one so newcomers don't have to read through. I've done some reading around and asked some opinions of other vets involved in food safety and pathology. The reasonable question was posed by Apache as why Best Practice is opposed to incising Lymph Nodes, which he and I would do routinely when doing a post-mortem.

A colleague put it nice and simply that there is a difference between a PM to find out why an animal died and the inspection process that decides if the deer is fit to eat. He drily suggested that he hoped we knew why it had died! So inspection of nodes is largely irrelevant in the absence of other findings.

Human meat inspection incises nodes specifically to look for TB, so is this applicable to deer?

TB in deer is often liquid pus rather than the cheesy/gritty pus found in cattle and from what I've read, I get the distinct impression that TB in deer is not subtle even if only the nodes are affected. The deer itself may look OK, but lesions are big. The liquid nature of the pus in many lesions means there is a real risk of carcass contamination if the node is incised. The pattern of lesions in deer is that if any internal abscess is found (without an obvious cause) then TB has to be considered.

Best Practice is that if the nodes are suspicious - enlarged, lumpy, change in colour based on looking and feeling then they should be treated as suspicious. BP says to bag and collect offal and report to your nearest AHVLA office (see above sticky).

We've had a TB hotspot declared near here and AHVLA would like to have case reports from deer. If they are all negative, so much the better.

Hope this helps

B


 
Buchan - thanks for asking!

I get the distinct impression that TB in deer is not subtle even if only the nodes are affected. The deer itself may look OK, but lesions are big.

It has to start somewhere! If we don't go looking for it there is a chance it could be missed.

Personally I will continue incising lymph nodes. Obviously away from the carcase.
 
Not to back slap you two vets, who are busy high fiving each other :rolleyes: but these two threads are excellent.... More of the same please... Good reading
 
Not to back slap you two vets, who are busy high fiving each other :rolleyes: but these two threads are excellent.... More of the same please... Good reading

Totally agree OSS32, it is this information that is a really valuable part of the SD site and a big thanks to the vets who are spending the time to inform the rest of us.
Personally I don't incise (unless when training on larder/gralloch courses just to show a healthy gland, what it should look and feel like). A swollen gland is usually pretty obvious.
 
[QUOTEo=Buchan;511053]Just starting a new thread in answer to the previous one so newcomers don't have to read through. I've done some reading around and asked some opinions of other vets involved in food safety and pathology. The reasonable question was posed by Apache as why Best Practice is opposed to incising Lymph Nodes, which he and I would do routinely when doing a post-mortem.

A colleague put it nice and simply that there is a difference between a PM to find out why an animal died and the inspection process that decides if the deer is fit to eat. He drily suggested that he hoped we knew why it had died! So inspection of nodes is largely irrelevant in the absence of other findings.

Human meat inspection incises nodes specifically to look for TB, so is this applicable to deer?

TB in deer is often liquid pus rather than the cheesy/gritty pus found in cattle and from what I've read, I get the distinct impression that TB in deer is not subtle even if only the nodes are affected. The deer itself may look OK, but lesions are big. The liquid nature of the pus in many lesions means there is a real risk of carcass contamination if the node is incised. The pattern of lesions in deer is that if any internal abscess is found (without an obvious cause) then TB has to be considered.

Best Practice is that if the nodes are suspicious - enlarged, lumpy, change in colour based on looking and feeling then they should be treated as suspicious. BP says to bag and collect offal and report to your nearest AHVLA office (see above sticky).

We've had a TB hotspot declared near here and AHVLA would like to have case reports from deer. If they are all negative, so much the better.

Hope this helps

B


[/QUOTE]

there are a few points made in this post that is above the everyday stalker/hunter
Especially when you are about educated people
Most stalkers/hunters are not
Meat inspectors incise for a reason and because they are trained to
same as vets because I hope they really know what they are looking at and for
but your colleague put it into perspective
As a deer stalker
if we found it dead we would not need to internally inspect to find out why it died as we would not usually touch it but road kill is another issue for some
if we had shot it then we already know the reason why it had died
surely gland/node inspection is still important to see if it is still fit to eat as some beasts on first impression before they hit the deck look in good health and condition
would you recommend an every day stalker to incise this and why??

IMG_3876.jpg
 
Looks more like an abscess or tumour. I would cut into it to see. Could even be a .22 bullet :norty:

Interesting
what would you expect the texture to be like once you incised

Not .22
oldish Roe buck in rut on a arable farm
i will not hold you to your analyses if wrong
just more out of interest
 
I'm assuming that the greyish lump to the left of the large round mass is a lymph node. It looks like the mass has some adhesions (scarring) to its left side, so its possibly an abscess. But an internal abscess could be TB so I'd not incise.
 
I wouldn't incise it, just by looking at it there's a fair chance it will contain something nasty,the lymph node in view looks normal, if the rest where and the animal was in good condition I would disgard the green offal as normal, im sure curiosity would get the better of most and the dagger would go in...
 
Interesting
what would you expect the texture to be like once you incised

Depends what it was and that's why I'd incise! It also depends to a degree where you are geographically. My first thought isn't TB, but in endemic areas that shoots right up the differential list and becomes the diagnosis we are seeking to exclude.

* tumour - variable consistency, from homogeneous to cavitated. Could even be a fatty tumour (lipoma). I removed a similar looking one in an old ladies dog once that required a part of the intestine removing and joining back together, was a leiomyoma

* abscess - capsule full of puss. Concern if gritty (TB) or green (CLA). Not all TB abscesses are gritty caseous puss.

I have seen a similar mass in a rabbit and I found an air rifle pellet in the middle, hence the .22 comment.

Anything like that should be dealt with last of all, after any other knife work done for the day and you can take the knife home and give a proper clean. Use your backup knife if you like. I don't mean slice the abscess then go and remove the legs. I imagine that doesn't need saying.
 
Another one
this from from a Roe doe that routinely fed from a pheasant feeder, not sure if there is any connection due to constantly eating wheat
Thoughts...!!!

P1050744.jpg


P1050745.jpg


P1050751.jpg
 
Another one
this from from a Roe doe that routinely fed from a pheasant feeder, not sure if there is any connection due to constantly eating wheat
Thoughts...!!!

P1050744.jpg


P1050745.jpg


P1050751.jpg

It amazes me that roe (don't know about all deer) seem to be able to consume amounts of wheat that would kill a sheep...
 
It amazes me that roe (don't know about all deer) seem to be able to consume amounts of wheat that would kill a sheep...

Muntjac and Fallow can do the same
Infact Fallow would easiely consume more due to their size
 
Does anybody have any photo's of enlarged LN's that have been caused by TB?

I have seen pics which show less enlargement than my last set of pics which where TB positives
I don't think TB is that easy to diagnose
but aslong as you cook the meat thoroughly you will not hav a problem
 
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