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Thread: Trophy measuring

  1. #1

    Trophy measuring

    Hi does anyone have the formula for the new BASC measuring ? how does it compare to the CIC system? why do we need a new system? what are the points needed for the new platinum class?

    I have read that 134 heads have been granted medal status so far under this new system.

    I would be interested in the formula if someone has it , would like to compare it alongside the CIC
    system.

    I am not a qualified measurer, but I do measure heads using the CIC system for clients, depending
    on the outcome they can then decide if they wish to have it officially measured.

    I would like to be able to apply this new BASC formula to a head if so requested by a client.

    Would appreciate it if anyone can supply the formula,also any comments from anyone who has knowledge of this new system.

    Sorry should have said its Roe I'm interested in measuring.

  2. #2
    SD Regular willie_gunn's Avatar
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    I've looked for the exact formula on both BASC's and Sporting Rifle's website but I haven't managed to find it. There's a page on the BASC website that describes measuring a roe head here: http://www.basc.org.uk/en/department...phy-measuring/

    There's also an article on the measuring service here: http://www.sporting-rifle.com/features/record-alliance/

    As stated in the above article, the threshold for "platinum" is 150 points when it comes to roe.

    There was a long thread discussing the merits or otherwise of different trophy measuring systems here: http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.u...e-awards/page8

    For those who may not already know, the CIC Red Book can be found here: http://www.cic-wildlife.org/uploads/media/red_book.pdf

    willie_gunn
    Last edited by willie_gunn; 08-02-2013 at 02:30.
    O wad some Power the giftie gie us to see oursels as ithers see us!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by willie_gunn View Post
    I've looked for the exact formula on both BASC's and Sporting Rifle's website but I haven't managed to find it. There's a page on the BASC website that describes measuring a roe head here: http://www.basc.org.uk/en/department...phy-measuring/

    There's also an article on the measuring service here: http://www.sporting-rifle.com/features/record-alliance/

    As stated in the above article, the threshold for "platinum" is 150 points when it comes to roe.

    There was a long thread discussing the merits or otherwise of different trophy measuring systems here: http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.u...e-awards/page8

    For those who may not already know, the CIC Red Book can be found here: http://www.cic-wildlife.org/uploads/media/red_book.pdf

    willie_gunn
    Thanks for the information Willie, The main differences I can see are doing away with the 90 day rule, the excepted cut is through the centre of the eye socket so what we would call a short nose cut, which I find a little strange as I would have though the long nose cut was more popular,it certainly is with my clients the majority of whom are Europeans which may be the reason why 99.9% request a long nose cut.

    Platinum medal for Roe over 150 points this would appear a fairly good idea as there can be a vast difference between a head of 130 points and one of 150.


    Points for colour will now be measured of a colour chart and no longer the measurers interpretation


    Don't think there will be very much difference in the actual outcome.

    BASC say by relaxing the 90 day rule visitors to the UK will be able to have their heads measured here before leaving, personally I don't see it happening with European clients who are used too CIC measuring and would think they will stick with it.


    I would still be interested in the actual formula if someone has it, its easy enough to find the CIC formula
    why hasn't BASC published their formula
    Last edited by bogtrotter; 08-02-2013 at 20:47.

  4. #4
    Most of our clients are continentals and to be honest have never heard of BASC and a measurement from them would be worthless
    All of our roe bucks are boiled and cleaned but not cut and clients normally take them home in their suitcase which also saves us the hassle of postage etc. most clients let me know the score they reach later in the year
    A few of our muntjac and water deer get measured here if client has requested a shoulder mount and we always use CIC
    The BASC measuring service may be ok for some but I can't see it will ever be as recognised as CIC imo.
    Regards Andy

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by cwd View Post
    Most of our clients are continentals and to be honest have never heard of BASC and a measurement from them would be worthless
    All of our roe bucks are boiled and cleaned but not cut and clients normally take them home in their suitcase which also saves us the hassle of postage etc. most clients let me know the score they reach later in the year
    A few of our muntjac and water deer get measured here if client has requested a shoulder mount and we always use CIC
    The BASC measuring service may be ok for some but I can't see it will ever be as recognised as CIC imo.
    Regards Andy
    I suppose this higlights the problem
    trophy hunting status
    A trophy is a trophy yes
    so why does it matter who measures it aslong as it comes with a credited medal and paperwork..??

  6. #6
    SD Regular willie_gunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogtrotter View Post
    I would still be interested in the actual formula if someone has it, its easy enough to find the CIC formula
    why hasn't BASC published their formula
    That's a fair question. When I looked back through the old thread I saw that David from BASC said that it would be published in the spring....of last year. I searched on BASC's website and on Google but couldn't find it anywhere.

    I am with cwd on this, in that although it is no bad thing having competition in most areas, I don't quite see what BASC is/was hoping to achieve by competing for trophy measurement. Apart from the questionable hook-up with Sporting Rifle (already they have features on shooting platinum trophies) the fact that BASC and CIC are using different formulas simply results in the dilution of the scientific records for trophies shot in the UK. Given Dominic Griffith's work in the past on UK trophy analysis I find that a particularly sad outcome.

    The 90-day thing seems like a sop to encourage foreigners to measure using BASC rather than CIC, though why any continental would choose BASC I don't know, as the measurement surely wouldn't be accepted or recognised back home? That aside, I do like BASC's innovation of measuring antler colour against a standard chart to remove the subjective element. I would also like to see something similar for pearling (a pearl chart??) as again this would remove any personal opinion of the measurer.

    I question the whole platinum thing. Whilst I see the desire to differentiate different levels of Gold, to my mind it's more like an invention to play to the worst characteristics of the trophy hunters - now they can go round bragging that "mine made platinum". Some times you'd think it was the trophy hunters who grew the antlers, not the deer CIC changed the measurement thresholds for muntjac not long ago, so why didn't BASC simply do the same for their roe measurements? It would have made more sense than keeping Gold at 130 and introducing a new level, as the different measurement criteria already mean that a CIC Gold isn't comparable to a BASC Gold. Or have I got that wrong??

    willie_gunn
    O wad some Power the giftie gie us to see oursels as ithers see us!

  7. #7
    In answer to stones question it matters who measures it to the person who has took the trophy and as such a lot of trophies are taken by over seas visitors and they just don't even know who BASC is ?
    CIC has been around for a long time and to be honest most European clients look upon CIC as the acceptable standard
    if BASC measuring formula has withdrawn the 90 day drying out period to try and get continentals to use their system I still can't see it being of much use as most clients maybe here for 3-4 days so it would be a rush to get the head measured before they return home .
    I have no objections to BASC starting their own scheme but in all honesty I just can't see it appealing to continentals and a huge amount of trophies are taken by them
    Regards Andy

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by willie_gunn View Post
    That's a fair question. When I looked back through the old thread I saw that David from BASC said that it would be published in the spring....of last year. I searched on BASC's website and on Google but couldn't find it anywhere.

    I am with cwd on this, in that although it is no bad thing having competition in most areas, I don't quite see what BASC is/was hoping to achieve by competing for trophy measurement. Apart from the questionable hook-up with Sporting Rifle (already they have features on shooting platinum trophies) the fact that BASC and CIC are using different formulas simply results in the dilution of the scientific records for trophies shot in the UK. Given Dominic Griffith's work in the past on UK trophy analysis I find that a particularly sad outcome.

    The 90-day thing seems like a sop to encourage foreigners to measure using BASC rather than CIC, though why any continental would choose BASC I don't know, as the measurement surely wouldn't be accepted or recognised back home? That aside, I do like BASC's innovation of measuring antler colour against a standard chart to remove the subjective element. I would also like to see something similar for pearling (a pearl chart??) as again this would remove any personal opinion of the measurer.

    I question the whole platinum thing. Whilst I see the desire to differentiate different levels of Gold, to my mind it's more like an invention to play to the worst characteristics of the trophy hunters - now they can go round bragging that "mine made platinum". Some times you'd think it was the trophy hunters who grew the antlers, not the deer CIC changed the measurement thresholds for muntjac not long ago, so why didn't BASC simply do the same for their roe measurements? It would have made more sense than keeping Gold at 130 and introducing a new level, as the different measurement criteria already mean that a CIC Gold isn't comparable to a BASC Gold. Or have I got that wrong??

    willie_gunn
    Willie as far as I understand it a BASC gold will be comparable to a CIC gold at least from 130 points to a 150 points the new platinum medal for heads of more than 150 points, these heads will of course still be classed as gold under the CIC system.

    I have read that there will be no more than three points of difference between the BASC measurements and the CIC measurement which is about the same as you will get between individual measurer's, which makes it eh
    pointless.


    Where I do see some problems is with the 90 day rule, they say they will estimate the weight loss, now I allow 10% for drying out when measuring a clients trophy, which I find is not too far away,however I am not an official measurer and bestowing medals I am only giving a provisional measurement which gives the client an idea of whether his trophy is worth having officially measured.

    The problems that I see with this estimating weight loss through drying out, is not all heads loose the same amount, a head shot early season will loose more than one shot late in the year for example.

    This will not be a big amount and won't make much difference in most cases, but IMO could make a difference
    in heads that are borderline medals.

  9. #9
    As the BASC measurer was once the CiC senior measurer in the UK it would make sense that he uses a system strongly resembling that of the CIC. I remember there was a bit of a spat when he left CiC and I would think there is a bit of intellectual property rights involved with the CIC system so possibly that is why BASC have not published their formula

    i am probably wrong, but BASC are on here so they may comment.
    Last edited by prometheus; 09-02-2013 at 10:03.

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