Future testing of tracking dogs

Jagare

Well-Known Member
Have just got back from 4 days in England seeing my new grandson a doing a bit of fallow stalking. After talking to a couple of stalkers while i was in the UK it got me thinking that if you have this test and i have a rough idea what is being proposed. Who will judge these tests ? Are there any qualified tracking judges in the UK? If the test is to be based on the Scandinavian model has any one been in touch with the hunting organisations in Scandinavia to try and come over and see what judging entails.
If this qualification is to mean anything then it should be judged by people who are as qualified as judges in any other field trial .
I would not be happy to have my tracking dog judged by some self appointed person without them having been trained as a judge for the job.
 
What do we need tests for some of the worst dogs I have ever see work have this or that test.

The best way to tell if a dog is any good good is to take it out to work on a real runner, the stalking world is small so you soon find out who has a good and who has a crap dog.
 
Stand Buck said:
What do we need tests for some of the worst dogs I have ever see work have this or that test.

The best way to tell if a dog is any good good is to take it out to work on a real runner, the stalking world is small so you soon find out who has a good and who has a crap dog.
StandBuck
you hav this bee in your bonnet that seems to be stinging you
best way is to smack and flatten it ;)
that way it won't hurt anymore
we need tests not just for the dogs but also to see if the handler also is upto the job
you are working as a team and that is what counts
as for the stalking world being small
it is not
but the nature of our country, means we hav a great grapevine in action that works on daily updates, good and bad :evil:
yes if a dog or it's handler is not as good as first thought then i'm sure it will get noticed quite quickly but we should not be to quick to judge
Alan
I see you hav not been updated on this, quite surprised by that :confused:
none the less
hope your visit was pleasant
but how did the Grandson fair???
 
Hej Rich, afraid i'm still lagging behind in with the latest updates :) .
I was just thinking about the judging as i said in my last post.
I belong to a spaniel club who hold field trials to English rules. England is seen here as the leading country in the world for spaniels and retrievers training and tests. The club now has A panel judges who have spent several years learning how to judge trials by coming to England and learning from visiting English trial judges.

So if there is to be a test and a register in England for tracking dogs that will count for anything should not the would be judges get themselves educated in the ways of Scandinavian, German or what ever tracking if this is the model they intend to follow.

The New grandson was great and i shot a fallow pricket
 
Alan
i agree
the UK is ruled as a class in it's own when it comes to field trials
in my younger days i was working towards being a B panel judge , i was pretty young then :)
as for Tracking tests in the UK and affiliated judges , plans already in motion ;)
just about to start the ball rolling shortly if all goes to plan 8)
anyone in the UK interested in this side of tracking then please feel free to PM
ATB
 
deer dogs

I'm in the working dog camp, I don't want something that has a bit of coloured paper & a bloody ribbon, I want something that can do the job!, It's a bit like the guy who has all the gear & no idea! It's not a field trial it's a real world tracking job. 8)
 
deer dogs

On a lighter note I really wouldn't mind one of those ballistic calibration hounds that Griff has, I think it's called Pepsi, really good over 100metres. :lol: :lol:
 
I fully agree that field trials are not " the bible " . I am about 20 years in Spaniels . I know what I see and I am not afraid to say what goes wrong .

" Verein Hirschmann " which the international organisation for Hannover tracking dogs organises every year an international meeting to compare dogs in the field . This is no agility playground .
A few years ago they did their test on a big driven shoot in Hungary . All the dogs get a "natural " track on wounded game . Every year they change place within the countries which are member of the group.
To have an idea , look in the video section . There are a few videos of driven boar shooting . This isn't playing , this is real work.
 
Re: deer dogs

finnbear270 said:
I'm in the working dog camp, I don't want something that has a bit of coloured paper & a bloody ribbon, I want something that can do the job!, It's a bit like the guy who has all the gear & no idea! It's not a field trial it's a real world tracking job. 8)

With you on that one Field trial and working test dogs are all about show and flashiness, not about being able to work all day through brambles, or over heather. It is not about the handler either good well trained dogs will, and dose work for anyone. Many times someone else has borrowed a dog of mine to sucessfully find a lost deer.

This testing all sounds a bit too much like people trying to make a name for themselves and then when certificates become complusory they will be able to make a nice bit of money. What will qualify these 'experts' how many lost deer and runners will they have to of found in the real world?

I reckon they must have shot all wild UK species and be shooting (themselves) no less than 150 deer a year that should make them properly experianced in the real world of following up deer.
 
I like the ebay star thing, you know more trades more stars.

Each tracking dog could get a different colour star for the number of genuinely (been looking for an hour without the dog and still no idea, sort of lost) lost deer they have found.

I bet theres a few surprises amongst the experts, so lets hear it how many lost deer has your dog found?

My little Teckel had none when i got her from Sweden and now has 6 proper lost to her credit 1 year on. One was best part of 500m in the dark in woodland.
 
You have to be careful not to get focused on tests or read the wrong thing into them. Perhaps field trails should be called field competitions.

Don’t get me wrong competitions can be fun and a great social event and are run in most countries where there is a organized approach to tracking. . Handlers who work their dogs enter them and they are rightly proud of showing what their dogs can do.
Tests however are not competitions and that is the point you must remember. A test is to see if the team is up to the job, you pass or you dont, if you fail you get help to try again. All aspects of working dog training have them in some form or other, DD, FX, man work etc. There are also people out there who don’t shoot but do like working the dogs and this is true in the tracking world. My personal view is that this is a good thing because it gives us all learning opportunities and I am as willing to listen to ideas and hints from those who have never tracked with a dog in anger as I am from those at the top of the game, some times it needs a fresh look at problems or methods.
You can shoot all the deer you want it won’t make you a good dog handler or be of any use if you can’t train the dog. Shooting deer has nothing to do with dog work
Forget the field trails this is a totally new area of dog work for most people in this country and will revolve around new working tests, with a bit of luck.
I also fear that people may decry any tests as they know if they tried they would not be able to pass and as such would lose face, This is a mindset that has to change and part of any testing system must have the advice and support available to help dogs and handlers get to a competent standard if they want to. You will end up looking a prat in a test or at training course, that’s what dogs do hence the most famous saying in dog training ‘he’s never done that before’, that’s part of the fun of clubs and get togethers but you will find that the same people who take the p@%% are the first to help you put it right and also the next in line to take your place in the dog makes handler look a prat award. The bottom line is as with any test, or real situation for that mater, if teams want to have a go and put the work in they will succeed, if they don’t then they wont.
Remember you don’t have to enter these things
 
I feel that 'tests' can often be a bad thing even when they originate with the best possible intentions.

I have a spaniel that will do this season and i think he will do ok. Ive put the work in (and i still am) and i think he is a nice little dog. Hunts a good pattern and picks dummies well and moving onto cold game. But i have no intention of entering a field trial to prove he is good. If people want me and him on a shoot then we will go, if i need to prove beyond what they can see or be told that he is trained then we wont go, its simple.

I am also going to give my new pup a go at tracking, nothing too dedicated, just take a line and find a deer as a back up (my mate has a bavarian pup so i suppose she will be the back up for the back up, second string back up if you like!!!). I wont be looking at getting 'qualified' because that doesnt float my boat. I would be perfectly happy if she turns out any good to help people at any time who have lost a deer or be put on a list for people to call, surely any trained dog is better than no dog.

I think its a good idea to know where the good dogs are (especially as increasing numbers of people take up stalking who might not know local stalkers) but it would be a shame if this concept goes the same way as the DSC, a nice idea but being used increasingly as a restriction.

Unfortunately i have no idea how to stop it getting carried away (so much for 'dont criticise unless you have a better alternative' sorry)

Dan
 
Dan,

I believe this is the concept behind the register cookingfat posted a link to.

Nothing formal just a means of finding someone with a dog in your area.

Stalking is a lot more solitary than game shooting so the chance of seeing a good dog working is more remote.
 
The Germans have a system where a dog is evaluated as a young dog then as a trained dog(VJP and HZP). These scores then follow the dog on the pedigree for life!

I believe lots of novice handlers score fairly low on the VJP but with training both handler and dog show better results.
 
As some of you will have read in my other messages in this forum , I don't own a tracking dog . I own spaniels for roughshooting and a bit of trialing . In Germany the tracking of wounded big game is taken VERY seriously . All over the country there are Forestery commission employees and other people who have trained and tested dogs to help stalkers when they are in trouble . Sometimes I read German hunting/shooting magazines and I try to communicate the things that seem intresting to me .
On the bigger driven shoots in Belgium and also in other continental countries they will shoot 50/60/70 head of game in a day . This several days a season .
Mostly boar , hinds and calves . The wounding percentage is far higher then when stalking . That's why I don't like driven shooting at all .
The people on these shoots which " handle " the tracking dog(s) always have plenty of work and their dogs have been tracking loads of game even in one season . That's how you become experienced .

About testing or trialing . It might not be perfect but it's the only way that you can compare things in about the same circumstances .
 
Stand Buck said:
Dan,

I believe this is the concept behind the register cookingfat posted a link to.

if i am not mistaken you are very wrong here, and if prooved wrong, i will hold my hands up
it was set up and posted just for recognition as the first dog register in the UK and was posted to that effect
surely as this is the only major dedicated stalking site in the UK, why was it not launched here or members aware of it
as surely this would be the best place in my mind if you wanted national coverage for the job in hand
perhaps Admin of this site could comment as they must be a member here surely as they know this is the place to be :)
or maybe they can't comment as he has been banned from this site on several occassions :confused:
maybe i am wrong perhaps he could comment about this on this thread ;)
this site is more like one upmanship, i feel
from the way it was launched and the timing
ATB
shall await reply :evil:
 
Re: deer dogs

finnbear270 said:
It's a bit like the guy who has all the gear & no idea!

one of my points
no matter how good your dog is if the owner has no clue , then were do you stand
testing is not just about the dog but about a team
testing is not about a piece of coloured ribbon or a bit of paper but to show you are both upto the job in hand
DSC2 is a great bit of paper to hav , as it says you hav successfully culled 3 deer for the gamedealer, it does not make you a better stalker
expereince does that
but by showing you are on the right level to start with helps
but by spending a fortune to get there does nothing to proove your worth
now lets get real here
how many of you out there can honestly say your dog can follow a cold blood trail of over 24 hours old??
how many out there hav ever had a track of a 1000+ yards ??
how many out there suddenly realised their dog was tracking the wrong way up a blood trail before they got 50 yards in??
how many hav gone in and worked out what has hapened before entering the dog onto the scene??
now how many dogs will work the same scent trail twice as they went wrong on the first attempt???
there are lost of hidden agendas to look for
would you trust just anyone with a dog if they said they were experts and would be happy to look for a few quid for you
or would you prefer some one geniune with some sort of credentials who wanted no payment but more to work a dog he/she had trained for such event
choice is yours

were are getting to far over the top here , when the solution is simple
 
Re: deer dogs

stone said:
finnbear270 said:
It's a bit like the guy who has all the gear & no idea!

one of my points
no matter how good your dog is if the owner has no clue , then were do you stand
testing is not just about the dog but about a team
testing is not about a piece of coloured ribbon or a bit of paper but to show you are both upto the job in hand
DSC2 is a great bit of paper to hav , as it says you hav successfully culled 3 deer for the gamedealer, it does not make you a better stalker
expereince does that
but by showing you are on the right level to start with helps
but by spending a fortune to get there does nothing to proove your worth
now lets get real here
how many of you out there can honestly say your dog can follow a cold blood trail of over 24 hours old??
how many out there hav ever had a track of a 1000+ yards ??
how many out there suddenly realised their dog was tracking the wrong way up a blood trail before they got 50 yards in??
how many hav gone in and worked out what has hapened before entering the dog onto the scene??
now how many dogs will work the same scent trail twice as they went wrong on the first attempt???
there are lost of hidden agendas to look for
would you trust just anyone with a dog if they said they were experts and would be happy to look for a few quid for you
or would you prefer some one geniune with some sort of credentials who wanted no payment but more to work a dog he/she had trained for such event
choice is yours

were are getting to far over the top here , when the solution is simple

How many of you out there can honestly say your dog can follow a cold blood trail of over 24 hours old??

Yes many times and 48hrs too.


How many hav gone in and worked out what has hapened before entering the dog onto the scene??

Why if you suspect a bad shot why not get the dog first it will save tears in the long run.

A couple of my stalking mates have found sika deer for at least a couple of members of this forum including 308rws who started the idea of a register. They went to one of the first sondergard courses at sparsholt. Niels wanted to use their dogs for demo but when he tried them he said put them away they have done far to much real deer work for this or tests, dose that not speak volumes?
 
Stand buck
so you know Ian
so you will know my plans
obviously not to your approval
can't help that but like i say you hav my mob no
but not yet rang it
why
thats upto you
but i feel you are fighting for the same goal as i am, but you are against it from your posts
As for Neils, best leave sleeping dogs lie here i feel
as no good can come from it
but like you say send the dog in first for a brisket shot where there is signs lots of pins scattered everywhere and little blood, looks like a blooming war zone
, just a few splatter of blood along the first 30 yards then nothing after that just slots
the deer may of run several miles and you and your dog hav followed with no chance of ever catching up
the deer in question survives the injury with just a scar to proove it was ever touched in the first place
found several years later live and well , untill shot by another person
wot dog and handler can control that situ
none as **** happens,
but having an idea first of all helps
feel like i am going around in circles here
 
A good blood spooring dog is only as good as the person who taught it. And every dog has its own unique characteristics, and both owner and dog must bond and be a team when it comes to blood spooring deer.

I am in agreement that there should be a register, and there have been a number of organisations talking about the idea, I think BASC, BDS and I might be wrong but the NGO as well. Why do we need another one? and who is going to be the self proclaimed judges :rolleyes:

Taking your dog out to someone elses ground to find a wounded deer is fine if you know the person, the ground and the species involved. Hiring yourself out and travelling a fair distance to do it at the drop of a hat I do not think it will work.

Lets face it if its 6am on a week day and you call a dog owner that lives 30 miles away, he is probably going to be on his way to work!! unless he is a full time deer manager and has the time to attend, and by the time he arrives at the spot where you lost the deer, it could have made a great deal of ground by that time and be anywhere. By all means help those local to you and your friends as many do already but I for one would be reluctant to take my dog.
 
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