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Thread: Mentoring

  1. #1


    Ive carried this over to a new topic board there are many questions still unanswered by you the people that are fore filling the mentoring and mentored parts .

    Has anyone ever challenged the process, what was the response if any of the police forces .

    They have no right in applying any extra conditions following reasons being :

    (1) You are still allowed to Keep the weapon and ammunition at home

    (2) You are allowed to carry the weapon and ammo to there place of use . (But are not allowed to use it on your own hardly makes sense)

    (3) You are the person who is aiming the weapon at the intended quarry species or target , if something goes wrong it is not the mentor that is held responsible it is the person that is holding the weapon .

    (4) The certificate is in your name not the mentors .

    So why is the weapon and ammunition not held by him, if your not a suitable person to use the weapon, why should you be suitable to hold the weapon and ammunition in your home , these are clauses put there by the issuing police force and not the home office so they can be challenged as unlawful .

    Where is our friendly BASC man now ,looking for answers, not argument, these clauses have not to my knowledge came over the border to Scotland as yet . WHY .We are no different in Scotland than the fac holders in England or Wales .

  2. #2
    i feel there is a whole new point that you are not looking at
    this is a way that the issusing force are making sure that any new applicant is getting some sort of training and experience with out forking out for a bit of paper
    not saying it is right or legal but more of a compromise
    it will benefit more than less, i am sure of that
    but more to the point once you start to challenge a point of sense it means more hassle every renewal or variation
    sometimes it is better to go with the flow than against
    but i do see what your point is , as DSC1 was forced upon me but it has opened more doors than hav been closed in my lifetime of stalking so far
    but then i never had the cash to mount such a challenge
    who does?????
    and is it really worth it cosindering the benefits or cost comparison??

  3. #3
    Stone: I Have read in this and other web sites of people having hassles over the mentoring process ,myself having never been or required a mentor to possess a firearm , but having been through the home office guidelines for information for a job application ,have never seen anything on any paper forms to the application process of the requirement of a mentor .

    It gets me thinking that this has been someone ,who has been on the borderline to possess a firearm of which there are 15 checks that everyone must come up to scratch on before the issue ,will take place , that has said to there issuing force, I have a mate that will make sure I do everything properly thus creating the monster .

    This idea of mentoring has been sprung upon those applying for a certificate but only a firearms certificate ,why not a shotgun certificate also in my eyes the shotgun is far more dangerous being capable of fast multiple shots with a greater devastation .

  4. #4
    I agree
    i hav offered to be a mentor on several occassions and it seems funny the amount of indifference between the different forces as to what is required to sign of each applicant
    in my own catchment area all those i hav counter signed their ticket , hav never been asked for DSC or mentorship, not my influnce that i know of but it does seem strange
    neither are legal requirements and each force will enforce the guide lines as it seems fit
    a shotgun might hurt at 300 yards but a rifle will kill at the same distance
    i presume this is part of the consideration even though it is not fair
    a mentor is a mentor, but who judges thier suitability
    i know if i had a mentor who was not up to scratch , i would not complain as long as i got signed off

  5. #5
    For those living in Dorset it seems most FAC holders asking for stalking and expanding ammunition automatically have the adding of a named mentor or multiple mentors until the level 2 is achieved or level one with letters from AWs stating safety and proficiency

    Is this such a bad thing??? From a safety point of view

    From a personal view its frustrating for me as i did ask BASC for help as felt that after thirty years of shooting,ex forces etc and level one i should have my mentor taken off but they have insisted i keep it until my level 2.. BASC were unable to help and was on a previous thread on the site

    In my opinion there would be a good few experienced stalkers who would be willing to take the trouble and time to gain a safety certificate to instruct others along with stalking mentoring and being an AW

    Widows sons comments may be acceptable in my case as i dont want to challenge my local FLO because of a couple of indiscressions i feel very lucky to have my FAC and dont want to ruffle any feathers looking ahead to a renewal

    I think it is absolutely unfair to have varying rules and guidelines for diferent areas but believe something needs to be put in place as regards to a common and enforced safety guideline..

    There must be more than a few fellas on here that have taken their Range Safety for military ranges so i dont feel it would be out of the question to have a similar thing akin to stalking..

  6. #6
    I'm not actually against the principle of mentoring but I am strongly opposed to a) the way it is implemented and b) the mandatory nature.

    Here in Thames Valley I was initially granted a FAC with a condition where I could shoot foxes unsupervised but needed to be accompanied by an experienced stalker for deer. My other option was to do DSC1, and my FEO was very open in that he supported mandatory testing as it made his job easier.

    After I queried the deer specific condition I was told that, despite having held a FAC for a good few months and shot a few deer, they had made a mistake and needed the cert back to add a full mentor condition!

    In the end I got an experienced mate to write a letter stating he thought I was safe and competent and then the condition was removed totally.

    I strongly disagree with the was that FEO's and licensing depts are using classroom based training (such as DSC) or the mentoring route to absolve them of any responsibility when it comes to granting a FAC. All they want is a bit of paper signed by someone else with which they can cover their arses if it all goes wrong.

    What would happen in the following situation:
    Recently granted FAC holder is signed off by mentor as competent, mentor condition removed from cert, FAC holder goes out on his own, has a terrible accident and shoots someone.

    Who's responsible? You can bet that the mentor would have some serious questions to answer but against what criteria is he signing off someone as "competent"? There is no training or guidance for mentors, no minimum standards to achieve and no where is it stated what the mentor's responsibilities are.

  7. #7
    The criteria we must all work to is best practice that is the industry standard .So if you are getting mentored or taught to use a fire arm then that should be your own study work and with the imminent law,s coming in to the Scottish side of deer stalking the ones down south should think them selves lucky.
    Do we need training IMHO yes we do what type that tales eg voluntary or in the case of Scotland mandatory. you take your choice.

    ps i had an English chap i was mentoring an he had an open ticket in 4 weeks because he decided to take it to court (my idea and it worked )

  8. #8
    75 : Your last paragraph is just what I was waiting for, someone to put up the CONDITIONS and knowledge that the mentor must have to say he knows what he is doing.

    Best practice sounds fantastic, it sells a product, so why has it not been used by everyone that shoots, stalks etc, it as a product is way better than any of your deer stalking books ,only because it put together in a practical manner.

    I know people that have shot on ranges shooting all sorts of disciplines excellent shots they have been shooting for over 35 years just how do you tell a person that has shot in the common wealth and olympic games there not doing it right ,he started to shoot deer amongst other things a couple of years ago with if he's luck 1 possibly 2 outings per year.

    What do you mentor someone with a wealth of weapon handling knowledge in, If I'm right the mentoring came about due to the full bore center fire weapons, for the issue of a firearms certificate and not for shooting deer foxes ,etc ,if it was for the deer and foxes etc we would all have mandatory testing .

  9. #9



    In the last few years I have acted as a mentor for a number of people (a good few whell know members on this site also).

    I myself do consider it a worthy role for which I am not paid as I enjoy teaching people & getting new people involved it our sport.

    Supervisory conditions are here to stay in many areas of the country & those forces that do not impose them are probably going to be few & far between in the future.

    I still feel that in having access to a high powered centerfire rifle we are indeed very privilaged & that its not alot of the licensing office to ask that a new entrant be guided for a period of time for the saftey of the public at large & also just to make sure that they having done their 15 checks, that they have now not just granted a license to Michael Ryan's twin brother that was seperated at birth & who now has a new name!

    Regs Lee

  10. #10
    Sorry guys, I posted the below on the wrong thread. Essentially I think that there are several issues being confused here which I have attempted (probably badly) to separate:

    Bill Harriman wrote an illuminating piece on 'Chief Constables Conditions' a little while ago in shooting times. His opinion was that they are essentially unenforcable and in the terms of the act unneccessary.

    I think it may still be on the website and if I have time I will try and find it.

    From my point of view I feel that the imposition of mentoring conditions on FACs are an unneccessary imposition and one of the 'thousand cuts' by which the govt and police forces wish to remove firearms from private hands.

    The system is unwieldy, the legislation woolly and the people administering it when taken as a whole are incompetent. Chief Constables make up their own policies as they please and woe betide the fellow who appeals against what in many cases is a difference in interpretation. You can guarantee that the process of application or variation will no longer be smooth for him.

    The point I'm getting at is that if a person is seen fit to hold a firearm then he should be just that at the point a licence is issued. If he is not then he shouldn't have the licence granted.

    The gaining of competence to carry out various tasks with that firearm should be left to the individual. The police duty to society in general is to ensure that the person is fit to be entrusted with a firearm: security, general safety etc etc.

    The job of the police is not to ensure that the person can cull deer competently or any other species for that matter.

    Specific competency tests should be outwith the scope of the grant of FACs.

    However there may be some value in the application of a pure safety test administered by the police BEFORE the grant of a firearm certificate. This could be in the form of a multiple choice question paper or some other format. Essentially this would reinforce the work of the FLOs who, it has to be said vary in the standards they expect from an applicant.

    Finally the Act should be applied equally across the country as many of the problems we experience as a community at present are caused by the widely differing interpretation of the Act by the various forces.



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